Transcription
Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Hey, what is up podcast, listeners, I am so glad that you have found yourself at the joyful courage podcast. This is a place where we celebrate real and raw conversations about raising kids with conscious parenting and positive discipline. I'm your host. Casey o'rourdy, I'm a facilitator. I'm a parent coach. Most importantly, I am a mom of two teenagers, and I am walking the path of more mindful, intentional parenting right alongside of you. Please know that this podcast is created for you. I create it for you and for our community. And if you love it, feel free to share it with all of your family and friends over social media. Let's spread the word. Let's get as many people as possible listening to this show. Please write a review on Apple's podcast, formerly known as iTunes, and join the Patreon community, where parents, just like you are contributing just a small little amount each month to the show and enjoying perks like monthly webinars and community conversations about the content you hear on this podcast. Check the show notes for links and more details on all of that. I am so, so grateful that you are here and now enjoy the show. Hi, listeners. I am so excited to introduce you all to today's guest. Rachel Butler is an executive and professional coach, an organizational health expert, a wife and mother of two boys. She is one of those unique women who is both powerhouse and presence, if you were to only read her resume on paper, she's a total badass master in organizational systems, and she's worked with over 325 organizations. Oh my gosh, that's so many. But then you meet her, and she blows you away with her kindness, her integrity, her humor and her genuine care. Rachel embodies what it means to be an empowered woman and a conscious mom. Rachel and her mama business partner Jillian rowinski, are the voices behind unlearning supermom, a feminist website that supports equal rights and opportunities for women and empowering all of us. And I pulled from the website where they wrote, our culture has clearly defined what being a good mom should look like, and it is oppressive the martyrdom of being busy, being agreeable, putting everyone else first, running yourself ragged if super mom is who we become when we are in this world with our eyes closed, then unlearning her is a deeply courageous feminist act. I love following Rachel on Instagram. I follow her feed, and was so thrilled when she agreed to come on and talk more with me about unlearning Super Mom. Hi, Rachel. Welcome to the podcast, hello. Thanks
Rachel Butler 3:02
so much for having me.
Casey O'Roarty 3:03
Will you please share a little bit more with the listeners about how you found yourself doing what you do?
Rachel Butler 3:09
Sure, so I was, I think that's the first time I've ever heard my bio read out loud in that way, and Jillian wrote that for me, because we were both getting stuck writing our own and I felt so seen. And I also always feel a little embarrassed
Casey O'Roarty 3:21
get over it.
Rachel Butler 3:25
So I came to do this work. I've sort of always been interested in well being. I started out my work in nutrition and community nutrition, which is like food banks and meal programs and shelters, and I got really interested in leadership and how we can impact systems and, you know, make community change through our work as leaders, and that's how I ended up doing more work in organizational effectiveness. So that's what I'm doing now, primarily. And unlearning super mom is really a passion project for both Jillian and I. So you'll see sometimes, you know, we kind of show up more, or we take a little break, and we've promised ourselves, it's a project that won't be a super mom project for us. It's more about what we enjoy. So that's how I've ended up here. I do independent consulting work right now, I'll just tell you a little bit, I guess, about my journey as a parent in that work. And so I, you know, worked in organizations. I was in school when my oldest son was born, which people advised me against. It turned out okay, in my master's program, you know, Rachel, that's
Casey O'Roarty 4:30
funny, I was actually finishing my I was doing my master's when I got pregnant with my oldest and what could have been a two year program ended up taking me five but I did finish Yeah,
Rachel Butler 4:42
figure it out, yeah. Not easy, yeah. And so, you know what I found I felt like for me, the baby face was really wonderful and really natural. It got really hard for me as a parent. You know, when my older son was about three, really. Three and a half and my youngest, you know, just having two is not two times harder for me. It's like 10,000 times harder. And, you know, going back to work, I really wasn't ready to go back to work. I had a, you know, decent leave of like, 16 weeks, I think, but I just felt like my baby was so little, and I had all this just anxiety and sadness about leaving him, you know, and we had a great nanny and all of that. So when I went back to work, I just struggled a lot. I worked in a I had a really great job. It was an intense environment. We had a lot of really significant change happening. And what I found was it was just always so hard. I think anybody, any mom who's gone back to work, can relate where it's like, you're just trying to get everything packed up in the morning and get the kids where they need to be, and you got the older one who's like, you're trying to make sure it doesn't hurt the baby while you're trying to take a shower. You know, it's like, every day is just madness. And I just, I remember having this moment where I was like, you know, I was feeling like an actual physical sense of, like, putting my heart in a box to protect myself from all this pain, like even talking about it, no, right? It brings back all this emotion. Yeah. So I I knew I really needed to make a change. It wasn't working for me, and it wasn't working for my family, and, you know, also, with some of the stuff going on with the organization, it was a good time for me to move out. And, you know, there was kind of a lot of stuff about in the organization. Are, you know, are you all in? Was this question, which I experienced as a really masculine kind of organizational question, especially for people who have been working really hard in the organization. And, you know, it really made me reflect. It was kind of like a coaching question to me. I was like, you know, what, like, what am I really all in on? It's me, you know, it's my my family, my health, and this isn't working for me. So I took some time to figure out how to get, you know, some consulting work going. And I don't want to give anyone any illusion that that was easy, because it was, you know, it's hard. It's really challenging. But I think sometimes people also give a lot of pressure to moms, like, well, you could just, like, go do your own thing or get a side hustle, and none of
Casey O'Roarty 7:20
a keyword. Yeah, keyword is hustle, right? The freaking never ending hustle. Yes, I'm familiar Exactly.
Rachel Butler 7:27
So, you know, it's all just such a process of figuring it out. The other thing that happened for me too is, after I stopped nursing both of my sons, I got really intense, like anxiety and depression, which I think medically, a lot of providers will say, well, we don't really know if that's true, but for me it was really true. It was definitely like a postpartum depression experience, and so that you know that I felt for me was defining in my parenting, because it really made me step back and look at, where am I just doing too much right? And where do I need to cut back and make sure that I'm taking care of myself and my family. So anyway, that was around the time I had probably been doing consulting work for a little under a year, when Jillian reached out to me about working at a learning supermom. And I was like, Oh, definitely yes. You know, I really wanted to be on board. I love the message, and she had shaped a lot of the message prior to that, but wanted a partner, and so we've been doing that together since, I guess that was early 2017 so that's a long answer to how I got to where I am. But, you know, I think the pain sort of of all of that process and figuring out how to be a mom of two, and figuring out how to do the work that I want to do, and bring income into my family and all that kind of stuff, you know, is really a foundational part of my journey, you know. And just being who I am, and I'm a little bit of, you know, definitely a perfectionist type. And I wouldn't say I'm like type A, but I'm just always kind of into a lot of things, you know, and having to look at, you know, be a little more reflective about where am I putting my energy. Well,
Casey O'Roarty 8:59
thank you for that so much, because I think that while the details might be slightly different, I think you told a story that a lot of moms hold, and the piece around putting your heart in a box, and the emotion came up, it came up for me too, and I think it's so important for us to speak this pain and this truth and to make what is maybe hidden often visible. And I, you know, and I couldn't help but think, as you were talking about the process of, Okay, leave is over, I like my job. I have this support, you know, and having a nanny and and even, what a privilege that is, you know. I remember when I had my kids, well, I had my daughter, and I was living way up in the well, not way up, but farther into the mountains than I am now. And I was at school teacher, and I loved my job and and there was no childcare options that worked for me. And, you know, just thinking about all the moms. Out there, you know? I mean, it's varying degrees, right? Of like, have to, want to, can't not how much of our income gets cut because of child care costs. Like, it's so complicated and messy and hard and inside of all of it, we're just trying to be moms and love our kids and be with them and have good times alongside the you know, don't hurt your brother while I'm in the shower times. So I just really appreciate your sharing, because, you know, I get a little irritated, and we're gonna get into this, I get a little irritated with the I'm so blessed out to be a mom every moment conversation, because it's hard, and sometimes it's really hard, and it's kind of like, what have I said yes to? So I think keeping it real is so important and so healthy and so useful. So thank you. Yes. Yeah,
Rachel Butler 11:00
yeah. As you were saying that, you know about hap, you know, being happy all the time, there's, I'm, like, obsessed with Dr Clarissa Ben Cole Estes, who wrote women who run with the wolves, and she has so much great stuff. But, you know, she talks a lot about her Edna, who's, like, this really big character, and she said that, you know, she would always say, if they ever invent a happy pill, don't take it a happy only pill is a sleeping pill. And I think that's really true. And, you know, of course, I'm not talking about like people who you know, need, you know, support in terms of mental health situations and stuff. I'm not talking about that kind of pill, which I don't think really, you know, makes you happy totally anyway, we have to work at that. But just that idea that we, you know, if we only are going to be happy, we're going to be numbing so much out, you know, so much out of our lives that has other, you know, learning to offer and gifts to
Casey O'Roarty 11:47
offer us. Yeah. So your website is unlearning supermom. And this is this passion project that you and Jillian are working together. So help tease apart who is supermom and where does she come from,
Rachel Butler 12:00
okay, so, so the way we really think about supermom is she is who we become when we go to sleep or kind of go unconscious in our lives. So it's kind of, you know, when you get in that mode and you're kind of in tunnel vision, and you're just doing this thing, you're packing the lunches, you're getting out the door, you're getting home, you're getting dinner going, you're trying to play a little bit. You're going doing it all over again, and, you know, just trying to get through that to do list. So it's really, it's all of the unconscious, like habits and behaviors and social conditionings that we're not aware of when we're in that kind of autopilot mode. So I think a lot of the messages, you know, it's like you just you don't have time for yourself, you know. You kind of have to do everything for everybody else, you know. I think there is typically sort of like a martyrdom, you know, like that resentful kind of feeling that can come up sometimes, as a mom, you know, that we shouldn't ask for help, that everything kind of needs to be perfect. It's like the Pinterest mom, you know, meme kind of that, you know, we all have our own tendencies toward, I think, or most of us do it just kind of, she's just, like, gives us that feeling that we need to keep doing, doing, doing. And I also think there's like, this big paradox to super mom, right? Because it's become something that people say as a compliment, you know, or feel sometimes it's something that people say when they feel empowered, right, right? Like a badge of supermom, yeah. Like, I did, you know, this week I had this amazing client meeting, and then I had this great playdate with my kids, and I'm like, feel like, supermom, and that's okay, you know, of course, I think I don't want people's takeaway to be that the word supermom is bad, or that doing the things that bring you life are bad? I think it's more we like to frame things as good or bad, but it's not like that. I think it's more about the perspective that we're bringing to the things that we're doing and the motivation behind them, like, are we doing it because it's a quote should? Or are we doing it because it's something that brings us joy? Or is, you know, working towards a longer term goal or something like that,
Casey O'Roarty 14:01
right? And when I hear you run off those that automatic pilot to do list, I also it also brings to mind, like, how are we judging ourselves? Are we judging ourselves against this? Like, Well, I gotta vacuum the house and do all the dishes and make a dinner from scratch. Oh, I'm gonna go to work, or maybe I work from home, I'm going to get X amount accomplished. I'm definitely going to have some one on one time with each of my children, 20 minutes each, right? And then we lay down, and it's like going through that list. Did I do these things? And if I did these impossible
thanks. And if I didn't, What a fail, you know, hashtag, Mom fail didn't get the one on one time in today. Yeah,
Rachel Butler 14:51
it's just like, it's putting and I think, oh, man, when I had infants, this is, like, such a big awareness that I gained about myself, you know, was how. Much I put my own good feelings about myself, you know, or my like sense of worthiness, into what I'm able to accomplish in a day by like, completing a task. And I think that's something that so many women I know have to really relearn, is that we have inherent worth and value, and we're lovable if we do nothing for anybody you know. And yeah, I just think that's such a big piece of it, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 15:26
and I read that piece from your website during the introduction about culture, defining what being a good mom should look like. So I want to talk a little bit more about where we are receiving these messages, because they're not new messages, right? And yet today, you know, we have so many more, you know, metaphorical billboards for taking this message in. So where? And you mentioned, like, you know, the Pinterest mom memes, but where else are the messages coming from? Maybe more subtly, where we're not even really aware,
Rachel Butler 16:04
right? So I kind of, I'm gonna, kind of, like, take it way back and then not do it, bring it back to the current date. So I think for me, the history of, you know, just Mom, mom, life, is really interesting. And of course, throughout history, you know, I think we have it pretty good in terms of, like, the self, the health and safety of our babies now in present day. So I do want to acknowledge that. But you know, a lot of the messages that women, in particular, moms, get about how culture society would like us to show up as mothers is really based on, like, the economics of families during that time period, right? So, prior to the industrial revolution, a lot of women had a lot of economic value in terms of, you know, they were like, shearing sheep, spinning wool, dying wool, making cloth, you know, I mean working on the farms, producing babies, right? Exactly. And you know, children had economic value at that time too, right? You're producing babies and like, pretty soon, they can contribute to your to the work that you're doing. So we thought about children really differently than you know now, children have a lot of sentimental value, as they say, and not a lot of economic value.
Casey O'Roarty 17:16
So basically,
Rachel Butler 17:18
you know, after the Industrial Revolution and people were really moving, really moving to cities more, and there was a little bit more of a rise of, kind of a middle class. It changed family dynamics because, you know, we were living less close to, like grandparents, for example. But it also allowed, kind of created a situation where there weren't a ton of jobs, so men were working, but women were able to, like, stay home with their kids, you know, quote, be able to, I guess that's kind of, you know, during the Victorian era and stuff, there was a lot of, a lot of, like, messaging around women as, you know, the keeper of the values and the mother and, you know, it's like chest kind of view of women. And, if you know when, after, basically, during World War Two, when we needed a lot of women to work, they started, you know, there's a lot of shifting, then about like, Okay, we need to get women in the work, in the workforce. And then, of course, you know, when the war was over, a lot of those jobs were displaced and kind of back for men, and we went into this really big economic boom. And I mean, kind of always, but, you know, during those times, like into the 50s and 60s, there were, you know, a lot of the messages are being shaped by, basically, men in power, right? So it's, you know, political, you know, politicians, businessmen, people who are script writers or, you know, we're sending, you know, even, like journalist types, right? I don't know if they called them journalists at that time, but you know, so they're able to shape that message. And a lot of those men, one were of, you know, had higher economic status, and really, you know, promoted that belief that women, you know, had the most value in the home, but, you know, building on the idea that we could, like, instill values and be a, you know, keeper of the home. And of course, there were a lot of women who were working. So, you know, in a lot of ways, these kind of core values that I think have become a little bit of a fantasy, you know, the Leave It to Beaver kind of thing, where mom's at home and keeps the house, and dad goes to work and comes home and brings home enough for the family.
Casey O'Roarty 19:18
And you know, what's coming up as I listen to is, this is also a really white story, yeah, right. Like I'm thinking about the marginalized, you know, minorities, and there's a different kind of dynamic. I'm assuming, I'm not super versed in the history from, like, a black perspective, but I'm guessing too, this is, you know, this is the white men of power creating this dynamic. And really, the white women feeling this, you know, I get, I have to have to, quote, get, or slash, get to stay at home, you know, because there was also, you know, only so many career options available for women who who needed to get out of. The house, right? Because of survival,
Rachel Butler 20:02
exactly, yeah. And, I mean, I'm glad you brought up, you know, about, like, women of color. And, you know, back to, you know, the late 1800s you know, post the Civil War era. A lot of, you know, African American women really wanted the opportunity to stay home with their kids. And even in some cases where they were able to, there were a lot of messages where they were basically, like, shamed into coming back into the workforce. Because, you know, they were like, you know, called, like, lazy and right all of these things, because, like, right, like, you're talking about those structures of power. White men, white women still wanted their services of cleaning their homes, taking care of their children, so it's absolutely a part of the story. Yeah, it's complex. Yeah, it is
Casey O'Roarty 20:50
complex, yeah. So moving into now, like the 80s, 90s, present day, yeah,
Rachel Butler 20:56
sure, so. So coming out of the 60s, there were, like, a few kind of key things that were happening. There was, like, this kind of persistence of this idea that women should stay in the home, even though it wasn't really, really the reality. And a lot of women were working. There was a lot of economic prosperity that required more women to be in the workplace, because we needed workers. And then there was also all this economic prosperity that required us to sell goods like so, for example, this idea of the housewife. And in the 60s, you know, TV was emerging, there is, like, so much more advertising, and they started, you know, one little example is like, started selling clean home cleaners as diversified. So now you have, like, a cleaner for your bathroom and a cleaner for your window and a cleaner for your kitchen, and they're all different, and it made you feel like you're the expert in your home, and your home and your husband couldn't quite figure all that out. So you know, you're the one who really understands that about how that stuff works.
Casey O'Roarty 21:46
So isn't that a backhanded little like, Oh, good job, you you understand all the different types of cleaners, like those little
Rachel Butler 21:56
things I learned. I'm like, oh, man, that's so insidious. And so I think there are so many of those little kinds of insidious messages. Yeah, and of course, you know, during the 60s, there's all this, like the civil rights movement, the women's liberation, The Feminine Mystique was released, and soup this term supermom. I'm getting to the point here. This term really emerged in the 70s. I think 1974 is the first time that they really saw it in the vernacular. And it's also, I think, you know, interestingly, the first time that parenting started showing up as a verb, and, you know, and prior to that, it was really like you were a parent, but parenting wasn't like an activity, really. And there were some published works on parenting, of course, but nothing like today, like I was preparing for this. He's like, if you search on Amazon, you'll get, you know, parenting books, you'll get like, 60,000 results. Oh
Casey O'Roarty 22:44
yeah, I'm looking at my own stash right now, and it's, it's pretty fast.
Rachel Butler 22:48
It's obscene. And also during this time is when we started shifting from the idea of, like, housewife to stay at home mom, right? So it everything just became so much more focused for the mom on your relationship to your children as the value that you provide, right and so and you have all these educated women who you know through your schooling, you can, like, study something and become a master of it. And and this has, like, been so true for me, is like, you really can't do that with parenting. You can learn and practice and try different things, but there's not this same sense of, like, mastery. And so I think that's one of the things that really gives, you know, it feeds the desire to be selling more product, because it's like, I need to read this book or that book or this to try to figure out how I can be better at this. And in reality, you know, sometimes more information is not better.
Casey O'Roarty 23:44
Hey, everyone. Casey here, just interrupting this interview to remind you that you have this great opportunity for giving back to the joyful courage podcast and receiving in return. I mentioned it in the introduction of the podcast. I mention it as I leave at the end, but Patreon. Patreon is where you can go and you can show your support for the value that you receive from this podcast. I get emails. I get messages all the time talking about the way that you all are consuming and loving and putting into practice all that you hear on this show. Patreon is a place where you get to contribute and give back. So at the $10 level, you get to be included on some monthly webinars and other perks. But you can also just give $1 a month. You can give $5 a month, whatever works for you and your budget. Something really special happens when we know that we are giving back to the service, the product, the companies, the podcast that is giving us so much. So I encourage you to head on over to patreon.com/joyful courage. That's P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage and decide how much the podcast. US is worth to you. Thanks. I talk a little bit every time I lead any workshop, especially live stuff. You know, the first thing I say is, hey, I've got a lot of knowledge around positive discipline, which is the program that I facilitate, and it is messy in the practice, in my own home, right? Because I was so funny. I was just writing about this, because we can know all sorts of things in our head, but we aren't dealing with robots. This is like human relationship. There's so many variables. There's, you know, so many curveballs. There's you know, the way that we are being experienced by the other person is going to dictate how they respond. And it doesn't matter if we're quote saying the right thing, or the idea that, well, if I just read more or listen to more, and it's like, you have to practice, you have to like, choose, not to freak out and try something different, right?
Rachel Butler 26:02
And that's really the work, right? Yeah, you can totally read a book and figure that out, but that is one thing I love about you, Casey, is that I feel like you're so authentic in terms of talking about what like, what it really looks like. Because I think that actually is one of the things that is so challenging for parents, is, you read this stuff, and the examples that they give are always kind of vague. And there's, there's not a lot of follow up discussion about like, this is messy in practice, you know. And I personally do ascribe to more of a positive parenting, you know, philosophy, I would say, but I fail it at like, 50% of the die, you know. I mean, I shouldn't say fail, I, you know, but, you know, like, sideways or I'm still totally yell at my kids, you know, I wish I didn't, but I do, and it's hard, and there's no silver bullet. But I think, you know, that idea that you can is something that has really, you know, led to the rise of a supermom epidemic.
Casey O'Roarty 27:01
Yeah. So what do you This is? Might be kind of a side note. You know, talking about the quote, metaphorical billboards, I'm thinking social media, which, you know, there I would, I mean, I don't know the numbers about how many people aren't on social media, but, you know, I would say parents are on social media. And I love the messages around you know, be the parent your child needs, and the really sweet, gentle parenting child centered messages. I so appreciate them. They tug at my heartstrings, and some of the time I read them, and I feel a tremendous amount of guilt.
Rachel Butler 27:42
Oh, I'm so with you on that.
Casey O'Roarty 27:48
And what about what? I just want to toss them out the door. Like,
Rachel Butler 27:55
yeah, it's like that idea of, you know, enjoying your kids every moment, right? Yeah? And, you know, the treasuring them, and we, you know, we do our best. I think, yeah, yeah. And I
Casey O'Roarty 28:11
don't. And I also know that there's a totally other end of the spectrum where it's just like, you know, the parents who are like, my kids are assholes, like, I have to scream, or, you know, they don't listen. Or, you know, and it's more, like heavy handed on that end, where it's, you know, just the opposite extreme, which I'm also like, Oh, good, I'm not there, but I'm not always in this, like, super child centered, you know? I mean, I am the star of my own movie, like, that's just a fact, right? And so while my teenager loves to request that I not make things about me all the time, it's really challenging, right? It's really challenging to step out and to expand into the experience of our kids. And I think I do a pretty decent job at that, not perfect, but, yeah, I feel like there's these two ends of the spectrum, and the messy middle. You know, we don't necessarily value, there's not a lot of value in that messy middle. Or there is value, but it's not something that's broadcasted. Yeah,
Rachel Butler 29:20
it's interesting, like, so talking specifically about the kind of different types of parenting stuff I see on social media, and, you know, on Instagram, I follow a lot of the different parenting accounts because I'm curious. And you know, some, you know, it's like, sometimes those ones that you're talking about that are kind of like, Oh, my kids are awful. And, you know, I sometimes they're funny, you know, sometimes they resonate. And then, you know, sometimes the gentle ones, like you say, make me feel guilty. And so it's like, and then sometimes there are the people kind of, like, act like they're really keeping it real, but I'm like, but you're not really keeping it real, yeah, what's really
Casey O'Roarty 29:54
going on outside of that frame?
Rachel Butler 29:59
And so. I think just as long as we like, bring the awareness to it for ourselves, you know, but that's why I have times where I'm like, on social media more, and then sometimes I shut it down, like, we shut down our account, or we just weren't active on there at all over the summer. And it was amazing, you know, because sometimes it's just too much input, and it's really hard to not get into like, comparison, itis, you know, like, yeah, oh, God. Well, that person looks like they have their act together, and they must be so wonderful with their kids all the time, or, right,
Casey O'Roarty 30:25
whatever. And something that you said at the beginning, when I asked you about who is super mom, what did you say? You said, you know, when we go to sleep, when we are unconscious, and I think that that, just to make the distinction for the listeners, it's really that, you know, for me, being asleep and on social media is just the content, like, knowing that I've got stuff to do, but that's kind of, you know, 10 feet away from me, and instead, I'm just completely consumed with scrolling the feed,
and not like bug eyed and intense, but just like I'm there and I'm just gonna let 15 minutes go by. Let 20 minutes go by. You know, my phone tells me your screen time has now maxed out. And I'm like, ignore, you know? And that to me, I think that's another place where we can bring more consciousness in, because when that comparison itis shows up, or when the judgment shows up, I mean, even though we've got these two ends of the spectrum, you know, we're gonna come we're gonna have our emotion around it, right? Like, oh gosh, that's, you know, that's true about kids, and they just want to be seen and heard and and, ah, Gosh, I really screwed up this morning, and now I'm feeling guilty. Well, screw this person. Like being conscious and awake is really recognizing that we're in that spin and deciding, do I, is this useful to me right now? Is this, is this serving me right now? My comparison, it is comes when I see other parent educators who have bigger followings or more comments or, I mean, I'm like, a friggin teenager on Instagram, you know, like, Why does, why are more followers? And what am I going to get? That special blue badge that says I have over 10, you know, like it's,
Rachel Butler 32:27
it goes back to again, to that feeling. And, you know, Jillian and I did a little bit of a kind of survey a while back now, and got so much, so many beautiful comments from women. And it was like, when we started mapping it all out, we're such, like, organization development people, you know, we like put them on sticky notes and mapped it all out and themes and and it was like, it kind of broke our hearts, because, and this is true for me too, but it's like, I really think it goes back to that feeling of like, am I lovable? And that's what social media really triggers in us, is that feeling of like, am I lovable in relation to this person? Like, this person has a bigger following than me, you know, or that person seems to be better with their kids than me. And am I good enough?
Casey O'Roarty 33:09
Can I just tell a quick side story? Yes, please. So I have a teenager and I, and I have a handful of her friends that follow me on Instagram, and they always, they always like if they see my post, they like it, or they heard it, or whatever. And I say to Ro And I'm like, Oh, look this person, Leo. Leo liked my post, and I wonder what he thought about what I said. And she looked at me, and she goes, Mom, nobody reads what you write. It's just, they see you. They like you. Like they see you, they like it. It's and I'm like, Oh, I'm thinking, I'm giving these teenagers this profound opportunity to think outside the box. And now, anyway, I thought that was funny. But I
Rachel Butler 33:51
think the other thing about, you know, different parenting, you know, and like, positive parent, for example, going back to this idea of, like, are we doing it right or right? Like, where these messages come from, but it's hard because it's in a new context. Of, like, we haven't ever really done this before. We don't, we don't understand. We're trying to break our own power dynamics that have existed within families for ever, probably in our culture and, you know, in, like, Western culture and this sort of like, top down, you know, because that power differential does still exist in my family, and so I struggle to figure out how to show up in these really gentle ways, like you're saying in these memes, while still getting my kids to, like, do the stuff they need to do. So it's, it's unchartered territory, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 34:37
definitely. And you're so, you're so back to your mission, right? We're 30 minutes in. So your mission is to help women unlearn supermom. Where do you start? Like, what are the stepping stones to that huge question? I know, I
Rachel Butler 34:55
know it so is. And, you know, I think Rachel, you had even said this. Yeah, right. Like, I have, like, some silver bullet. So, I mean, I think for me, you know, it's hard to name one thing, but as we've kind of talked through all of this, I think it's about getting back, sort of like what, what we've called and in our work, is like the seed of knowing, and that, you know, I'm like putting my hand on my heart right now or on my chest, it's like getting back in touch with you, basically, like your own instincts, your own intuition, your own like sense of yourself, your the expression that you need to have in your life. So there's kind of a few core things that we believe, is really part of this, and this, you know, the main piece of that is being able to get in touch with yourself. And I think there's a number of things that you have to do, to do that I don't want to say have to do, but it just depends, yeah, it get to do, and where you kind of would enter into this is really where you're at. You know, some people, we all have our different strengths and work that we need to do. So, you know, one of the things is just like, really knowing what your fundamentals are in your life, like, what are the things that help you stay connected to yourself and at different times that might be different for you? Like, I would, like, I always put on my list, like, exercise and fitness, but I haven't really had a regular exercise and fitness program. Fitness Program for like, three years. So realistically, is like, probably not that for me right now.
Casey O'Roarty 36:28
Well, then there's, there's, there's self care, and then there's soul care, right?
Rachel Butler 36:31
Exactly. So it's like, you know, for me, I do need to have enough sleep. That's a you know, I need to be able to eat decent food. I need to, you know, for me, quiet time every day, so like a meditation practice, even, you know, if it's just 10 minutes, and some days it doesn't happen. And I can sit on the edge of my bed for five minutes, and or not for five minutes, for like, five deep breaths, and that can be it for the day. We actually have like a free, like 16 second meditation for, you know, if you don't think you don't think you can do it, you can do 16 seconds, yeah, so just knowing what your fundamentals are, the things that help you stay connected to yourself, I think, is the best place to start. I think, practically speaking, just because there is a tremendous amount of stuff to do when you're a parent and so, you know, just being able to, like, run, run your business, you know, like, how do you do that? And I think this is, for me, mostly about perspective. I'm someone who can, like, get really bummed out and resentful about all these things that have to get done, the house, cleaning, the grocery shopping, the you know. And my husband is an amazing partner. He does a lot of this with me too, but I still feel like the keeper of it a lot, and so I have to work a lot on staying out of martyrdom and victimhood around this top I you and I like the least about being a parent hands down, you know. But it is, you know, getting so you don't have to make decisions all the time. So what are the systems, your regular routines, you know, getting better at using your time and being on top of your personal finances, even, you know, some of that stuff, so you don't have all this lingering stuff in the back of your mind. And it's about like learning how to say no to stuff that isn't part of your priority list. Yeah.
Casey O'Roarty 38:14
Love it, yeah. And what I really I want to kind of pull something out of what you just said at the very beginning, which is, you know, connecting, the one of those foundational places, right? Fundamental places, connect, having time, where you connect with yourself. And I think that probably a lot of the listeners, a lot of you all know what that means. And I'm guessing that some of you are listening and you're thinking, connect, I don't even know what that means. And so just to kind of break it down a little bit, it's, you know, being able to tease apart what is kind of like automatic storytelling versus what's your truth. You know, I think that as our kids get older, and you know, all of you that have been listening through especially the last year as I've navigated my teenager, you you know you're hearing me in real time tease apart like, what is fear, right? What's what is fear? What is future tripping versus what is i? What do I know to be true? And so if it feels really big, if, or I'm thinking also about some of the listeners that may have some childhood trauma, where, you know, going inside and going deep triggers a lot of emotional pain. And I just want to invite all of you to like, like Rachel said, just start where you're at, even if it's simply five gratitudes at the before you go to bed, or like, like you said, a 16 second meditation, just to dip your toe in and to give yourself the opportunity to try on a little stillness and to trust yourself. Because I think one of the biggest damages of the supermom. Model is that we lose our ability to trust ourselves. We lose our ability to trust that, that we are enough. We're doing enough, we're making a big enough impact. So I'm just thinking about the listeners right now, Rachel, because I know that for me, I kind of get, I get, it's easy for me to use the lingo and and be like, you know, just stillness, go inside, look for your intention. You know, yeah, then, and I lose people, because not I forget that not every you know, we're all at different places on our journey. So I just want to shoot out some encouragement to those of you, maybe this is the first time you've actually listened to this podcast and you're like, yes, yes. And this feels really big and really hard, and I don't know if I can do it, because you can. It's so
Rachel Butler 40:43
important what you're saying just to remember that it can just be the tiniest thing. And it's like, you know, the awareness builds on itself. So it's like, you have this awareness, like I would always get really anxious every time we would go on a family vacation. Oh,
Casey O'Roarty 40:58
man, are you a nightmare in the airport? I am I'm
Rachel Butler 41:01
not now, but accepted it. It was always like, getting out of the house, you know, I just always felt like it was like crazy. And then I was like, doing all the packing for everyone. And then, you know, then my husband hadn't gotten his stuff done, so then I ended up, like, doing stuff for him, and would be late to the airport, you know. And so I had this awareness, like, Okay, I'm, like, feeling really anxious when, when we will go on trips. And so then I had to, like, try some stuff. Like, okay, so then the next trip, I like, noticed that I was getting anxious, like, during the anxiety spell, and I couldn't do anything different, but I knew it was happening, you know. And then the next trip, I could notice it before, and then I could try to do something differently, you know, of like, working with my husband, and then, I mean, ultimately this ended in me kind of being able to, like, kind of let go of the steering wheel a little bit, and we missed our flight. And it was a it was one of those, like, tough learning moments. So instead of controlling and trying to, like, really push and get myself all wound up to get out the door. I just said, Okay, well, I'm not going to over function. And so this is the consequence that happened to our family, and it's never happened again, you know. So I think it's every time you know it's like noticing or knowing that you're not going to learn from an awareness right away. It's going to take, you know, a year or two, even, maybe, for something like that, where you get to experience it, then try something, and then, you know, you're gonna notice it happening. And maybe you even have that adolescent side of you where I'm like, I I'm noticing that I feel angry, and I'm still gonna do this thing, you know, you're like, Well, I kind of wish I did something different later, you know. So just to say, you know, it's, it's not as simple, I guess, as, right? Yeah, in the moment,
Casey O'Roarty 42:41
it's messy and there's no I think it's important too that there's no final destination. I mean, I think even the Dalai Lama gets caught up in his stuff now and again, you know, like, I mean, there it. We are. We all remain human inside of all of this. So trusting that as well. And oh my gosh, Rachel, I could seriously talk to you for like, three more hours. So great
Rachel Butler 43:08
awareness is one of the things that sometimes can work for people too. And this is one of my favorite ways to check in, is just checking in with your body. Yes, thank
Casey O'Roarty 43:17
you. Yeah.
Rachel Butler 43:18
I'm someone who really likes to, like, touch a part of my body that felt, you know, it's usually like my chest or my throat, or my like, solar plex, you know, I mean, a believer in chakras, you can read into why I might need to touch those areas. But, you know, just check in. And that's you don't even have to do anything with it. You don't make meaning from it. You can just say, I'm noticing that my heart is really beating faster. I'm noticing that I'm holding my shoulders really tightly. That can be enough. Yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 43:47
I something that helps me a little, little trick. Well, it's not a trick, it's an awareness, but softening the muscles on my face, and it's good for wrinkles. Double whammy. Double bonus. Yeah, so yes, I and maybe, maybe you can come back and we can talk more about the body stuff, because that absolutely 100% is a piece of the mindfulness journey, definitely for me, and I know for a lot of the people that I work with. So in the context of unlearning super mom Rachel, what does joyful courage mean to you?
Rachel Butler 44:19
I think one of the phrases that is most triggered. I already even brought it up in this conversation. The triggering for me as a parent is like, Oh, just like, enjoy every moment it goes by so fast that statement brings so much anxiety. Yeah, I want to kill people that say that, yeah. And I really understand the intention of it. I do. But for me, and I feel like I'm working, you know, I'm someone who's, like, maybe even obsessively working towards, like, enjoy, you know, trying to be with my kids and, you know, so I find it really and I'm sort of a nostalgic person anyway, so anyway, I get up a lot of anxiety from that statement. And so I sort of reject that idea that that the major measure of six. Success in parenting is enjoying it, you know. So I think from you know, the most impactful things, you know, profound things that I've learned as a parent has really come from, like the more painful moments as a parent, like some of the suffering that's come, you know, and what I've been able to learn from that, and being able to sort of meet it, you know, meet and face all of the really messy stuff and and I think that really is courage, right? Like coming up to that really scary, whether it's personal work or complex relationships or whatever, and showing up for them. So I think the, you know, joyful courage, to me in that context, is really about looking for the meaning and just showing up in your life and allowing that to not, you know, that what's there to not be good or bad, you know, and not treating happiness like it's the pinnacle of life experience.
Casey O'Roarty 45:57
Yeah, I love that. When I think about personal growth and development, I get so high off personal growth and development. I just love it, even when it's a slog, even when it's like, you know, I'm facing something that is like, Damn. What took me so long? You know, overarching all of it is that I find so much joy in the fact that I am a personal growth and development junkie. Like, that's really where the joyful part for me of joyful courage shows up, not necessarily in the nitty gritty. Like, oh, this is really hard, but I better enjoy it. But more of like, Thank God I have this awareness thing. I'm so grateful to be on the path of continuously trying to evolve and just peel back the layers of BS that show up, because we're humans 100%
Rachel Butler 46:51
and, yeah, I think that's something, you know, I want to acknowledge about you, is just that you I think really, you do keep it real, and it's Not this, like, you know, fantasy, oh, joyful. You know, everything about writing
Casey O'Roarty 47:04
is crazy. Yeah, we're in the meadow together wearing, like, flowy dresses, holding hands. No,
Rachel Butler 47:11
yeah. I mean, your message, like so resonates for me in that way. Yay, good.
Casey O'Roarty 47:15
Well, how can listeners find you and follow your work? Um,
Rachel Butler 47:19
so listeners can find us at unlearning supermom.com and also on Instagram. You can always reach out if you ever want to chat with us, but those are kind of the two places that we show up. We, like I said, we kind of, it's a passion, passion project. So we kind of are sporadic, sometimes with our, you know, blog posts and that kind of stuff. But there's actually some really good stuff on there, mostly written by Jillian, who's an incredible writer. I've learned a lot about parenting just from reading her posts, so I would encourage people to check some out. Oh, and also, I guess I could mention that we are doing our first ever retreat in Hawaii, yeah, in February the 19th through the 25th I teamed up also with a really close friend who is a fitness instructor. She's a trainer, and so we're gonna, it's basically kind of like a bliss out, you know, time to just be to take care of our bodies. We're gonna do healthy like home cooked foods and exercise every day, and have lots of time for reflection and relaxation too. So
Casey O'Roarty 48:22
that sounds amazing. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
Rachel Butler 48:27
Thank you for having me. Can't wait to connect again.
Casey O'Roarty 48:34
Joyful courage, community. Thank you so much for tuning in each and every week. Big thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper. Be sure to join the discussion over at the live and love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business pages on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Play. I Heart Radio, really, anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. Also, I mentioned Patreon at the beginning of the show. Check it out, www.patreon.com/joyful courage. This is where you can contribute to the show and take advantage of patron perks like content rich monthly webinars and deeper discussions about what's being shared on the podcast, you will like it. Www dot P, A, T, R, E, o, n.com/joyful. Courage. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent to Casey at joyful courage.com. I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way. So reach out. You can also sign up for my bi weekly newsletter at joyful courage.com just go to the website. Sign up for that. Take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay. Big Love to each and every one of you. Have a beautiful rest. Of your day.
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