Eps 102: Learning How Tears Heal with Kate Orson, Hand in Hand Parenting Instructor

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful courage parenting podcast episode 102 Hey everybody. Welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place for information and inspiration on the parenting journey. I am your host, Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer and parent coach. I am, as always, thrilled that you're listening in. If you find yourself laughing, taking notes and or excited about what you hear on the show today, do me a favor and pay it forward. Share this episode with your friends, family, neighbors, strangers, your sharing is the reason I'm able to show up for you each week, and I'm deeply honored to do so. And funny enough, right now, I'm trying something out, and I don't know if it's gonna work out, but I'm actually Facebook living this intro. So listeners, you're gonna hear the show when you hear the show in a few weeks, but actually the time of the recording, I am Facebook lighting so we're just gonna see if this works. And I'm a little out of breath because I just had to let my dog out. My guest today is Kate Orson. Those of you that have been with me for a while will remember her from Episode 50, where we talked about how to engage young children in cooperation and contribution around the house. Kate is originally from the UK, but now lives in basil, Switzerland. She is the mother of one daughter, and discovered Hand in Hand parenting. When her daughter was a baby, it really helped my confidence to know that crying is the natural way we heal from stress and upsets, to know that if my daughter cried, sometimes the most loving thing I could do was just hold her in my arms and listen. That's a quote from Kate's website, as well as teaching Hand in Hand parenting, Kate is a writer and has had parenting articles published in a number of magazines, including the green parent. She's also the author of a new book, tears heal, how to listen to our children. I'm so excited to talk about this book with Kate. She is particularly interested in the way our past histories influence our present day parenting. Oh, man, me too, and how telling stories allows us to release our own feelings so that we can become the parents we want to be. Today, we're going to talk about her new book and how to embrace tears as a way to support our children and ourselves in moving through emotion. Hi Kate, welcome back to the podcast. Hi,

Kate Orso 2:17
hi, thanks for having me, and thanks for that wonderful introduction.

Casey O'Roarty 2:22
Oh, you're welcome. Please remind and fill in the gaps there and remind the listeners a bit about your journey of doing what you do.

Kate Orso 2:31
Okay, yeah, I guess it actually started before I became a mom and I was, I was babysitting a boy that was I had this job when I moved to Switzerland. I was babysitting a five year old boy, and he used to have tantrums. And I was, I was a bit confused about what to do, because I, for a start, I thought that five year olds didn't have tantrums so and this led me on to Google and to figure out a way to deal with it, and I found some things like, oh, you should give your child a time out if they have a tantrum, or things like that. And that just really didn't resonate with me at all. And and then a few months later, I became pregnant, and then I I looked back at some of the resources I'd found about tantrums, and yeah, came across Hand in Hand parenting and their approach to to emotions and Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 3:24
well, I'm so excited to have you back on the show, and huge congratulations on your new book. So what inspired you, and it could have been this five year old early on, right? What inspired you to write specifically about this topic, about the tears? Yeah,

Kate Orso 3:41
the reason I wanted to write this book is I think that our entire culture has this mental block when it comes to crying. We we think that our role as parents and everyone falls into this trap, including me. Even though I'd started to research about tears before my daughter was born, I still did the same thing where, like, our baby cries. I mean, it's different with babies, because that's their only way of communicating. But for instance, like when our toddler cries, we're like, Oh no, this is terrible. They're having attention, and it's like, all we want to do is stop the emotions. And I came across this different way of listening to the emotions, which is, it's like it can be a really hard thing for us to do, but it's just completely reframing the way we view tears instead of being something negative that we need to control or we need to stop. It's more about listening and allowing the feelings and how much that helps your child to go through a natural healing process. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:44
I'm so excited to tease this out with you. This is such great timing, and you know that I've had a few other hand in hand instructors on the show, including Tasha Shore was on episode 65 talking about raising emotionally intelligent boys and Patty whipler, the founder. Of hand in hand was so generous with her time during episode 76 where she really taught me about the program. And I'm currently leading a membership program, and a few of the participants are big fans of the hand in hand approach, which, full disclosure, I have a very surface level understanding of hand in hand parenting. My listeners know that I'm from the positive discipline world, and I think that there are so many ways that both programs support each other, but I don't have a ton of hand in hand knowledge. So it's great that you're on and something that has shown up in conversations with my members is that emotional release with tears. So you already kind of touched on it a bit. But can you talk a little bit deeper about this, this, this concept of releasing emotions, and why is it so important to hold space for our kids to have the release? Yeah, sure.

Kate Orso 5:57
So basically, our children are born with, with this natural healing capacity. Whatever happens in their life, they have this natural healing capacity to release the feelings that build up from traumatic experiences. So for instance, if you get like a deer in the wild, if it has a scary, frightening experience, it will, it will find a safe place, and it will go into this shaking where it's releasing cortisol from going into fight or flight. And one of humans try and do the same thing in that, if we have a traumatic experience or even just a bit of stress, or, you know, a baby gets or toddler gets overstimulated, or they get scared by a dog, or something like that, then their body releases cortisol and and later they need a safe place to come to let the cortisol out of their system. And cortisol has actually been found in tears, so crying is one of the ways that that we do that. So, yeah, so

Casey O'Roarty 7:04
this becomes, then something, a tool to release a toxin from the body. Because, so what I know about cortisol is that when it's present, the brain actually stops. It can't grow when cortisol is present.

Kate Orso 7:16
Ah, right, yeah. I didn't know that. That's really interesting, yeah. Well, don't quote

Casey O'Roarty 7:21
me, but I think that is scientifically backed. And so, I mean, you know, so considering, like, so, so are you saying that even, you know, sometimes kids will have a heart, you know, have a lot of stress, maybe have that cortisol experience and then perhaps calm down. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they've released the cortisol from their body.

Kate Orso 7:47
Yeah, yeah. I think that's the thing we find. Like, for instance, if we've got a toddler that's about to throw a tantrum, and we're like, okay, I'll just give my toddler a bissegger, and then they'll calm down and they'll be fine. And it looks that they'll be fine, but we might notice later that the stress comes out in another way. For instance, they might hit their baby brother, or they might snatch a toy of another child and and so it's like, on the surface, it looks like they're okay, but actually, then the deeper level of well being that comes from releasing the feelings hasn't happened. So, so, yeah, so I'm

Casey O'Roarty 8:25
hearing you kind of reframing the purpose of tantrums, and I even that makes me feel a little like, Well, are we, you know, there's language we use, right? So there's the language of, oh, they're having a tantrum versus they're having a meltdown, right sometimes, and so I'm just like, right now, this is just coming to me. Are those both the same, or are they two different things? I think there's times when kids, you know, there's that that like you're not letting me have what I want, and I can't deal with the frustration right now, so I need to fall apart, and that's when I and that's interesting. Even those two words, tantrum feels more like it's a manipulation, whereas meltdowns like I literally like, can visualize that let down, that release, and maybe, and, and even as I say, tantrums feel manipulative. I also my parent educator is like, they don't know how to manipulate. They just are experiencing their emotion. Yeah. So do you see a difference? There are those two terms that we could use interchangeably.

Kate Orso 9:34
Um, I, I don't see a difference there. I, I see that like there's a tantrum where a child is more stamping and more really physical, physically releasing feelings, and then a map, a meltdown, or crying when they they want a hug and and stuff. But actually, both of these kinds of crying are for tension release and yeah, like you say, children. And aren't born to manipulate us. They're born to release feelings. So it's it's important to like, yeah, to approach those crying in a similar way. Obviously, you can't hug a tent from a child, but, but when children get upset, they really need an adult there, because as they release the feelings, the other important thing is, like, this is not about crying it out. When your child is in a upset, it's like their their emotional brain, the limbic system, is attuning to your brain. So if you can stay calm and stay with them through the upset, then that means that afterwards, they'll, like, attune to your brain, see that you're calm and that everything's okay, and then they'll they'll get through the meltdown and feel much better. I

Casey O'Roarty 10:47
love that. And, you know, I talk a lot with parents about our kids being our teachers, our children being our teachers. And, you know, we talk about creating intentions and deciding who they want to be. A lot of I have a lot of Reformed yellers and kind of reactive parents that work with me, and you know, it's all well and good when everybody's, you know, following through with the program. It's another thing when they fall into tantrums and meltdowns. But this is where the work is like, this is the practice field. This is the big game, right? So this is where parents who are listening, if you find yourself like, Well, yeah, I know I'm supposed to stay calm, but they're freaking out. Well, yeah, and you don't need to meet them there, right? You don't need to have your own meltdown. I think just as they're attuned to our limbic system, we are also attuned to theirs. So being aware of when we're getting pulled into their experience and simply recognizing and then pulling back because you're the adult,

you're the one with the skills. Yeah, that's

Kate Orso 12:01
so true, and it is slightly easier for us to not attune to them, because we have a much more developed prefrontal cortex, usually, like there are times when we get stressed and overwhelmed, and it's just not and it's just not possible to do this. But yeah, if you can stay calm and remember your thinking brain, then you can be there to help your child through the meltdown. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:26
and parents, there's lots of ways to practice this. Don't just wait for the tantrum to practice, right? Practice throughout the day. So, you know, we have, you know. So the obvious signs, right? Like you mentioned, the stamping, stomping around, door slamming, red face harsh words, or the, you know, the actual crying has already happened. Those are obvious signs that a child is having big feelings that they and they need to release. It seems like there. There's lots of other ways that they that show that they're having a hard time or are frustrated. So what are some other signs that are maybe more subtle for parents to look for? To know, hey, you know what? There might be a release in this kid's future so that they can kind of, yeah, prepare themselves, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, what are some other things?

Kate Orso 13:17
Um, I any, any kinds of what we call with hand in hand parenting. We call off track behavior, because we don't like to use the term misbehavior, but basically any behavior that you can tell your child's not feeling good, like, if they're being aggressive, or if they're what, if they're really whining, if they're like grabbing you, needing your attention all the time, and they don't feel content enough to play independently for a while. Basically any kind of, all the kinds of behaviors that drive as crazy as parents, and basically any kind of behavior that they're pushing your buttons, or they're doing something they know they're not meant to do, or doing things that are basically showing that their prefrontal cortex is not working. It's like when their thinking brain is not working well. It's because they're experiencing an emotional overload, and it might not be that they're going to cry just because you notice that they need to cry because children need a lot of safety to let go of feelings. And it might be that what they need first is for you to spend time with them, for you to play things they love to to have some laughter and play. So first to

Casey O'Roarty 14:36
lighten up. Yeah, lighten up people.

Kate Orso 14:41
Yeah, like, yeah, like, lighten up the whining with a bit of laughter and a bit of play, for instance, and yeah, like, it's all part of the same process of really, laughter is another way that children release feelings, and, yeah, get their emotions back into equilibrium. So, so you. I guess you can think of any kind of misbehavior as a sign that your child has feelings to release, right? It might be that they release them by crying, but they might want to release them by just having a good giggle or something like that.

Casey O'Roarty 15:13
Well, I appreciate the language of off track behavior. I always use the word mischief, right? So when they get into a little bit of mischief. Those are the because I don't like misbehavior either, because that assumes that behavior isn't purposeful, and it really behavior is purposeful, and it is always sending a message about about where they're at and what they're going through. And, you know, I think that, you know, I have a 14 year old, beautiful, lovely teacher of my own, and I'm just thinking about and this has come up in conversation in my membership again, when it's when from the outside looking in right as the parent, with however many years of life experience we have As the parent, and we're kind of watching this movie unfold in front of us, and perhaps it's like, oh yeah, there's going to be there needs to be some release. But maybe the child adolescent, the teenager is is stuck in that angry place. Or, you know, for all of us that maybe our parent educators, it might be like you will not. I am not going to fall for your tactics, right? Which really is an indication to me that my child, that something is there, is hurt there, right? Because when we hurt others, when we're hurtful, typically, it's because we're hurting. So where? What's the olive branch there when, when you've got school age or adolescent kids and and they're just kind of stuck in this emotion. What would you suggest? And yes, everything you just said, lightness and humor, although Be careful with the humor with your teenagers, be smart about the humor. But how can we kind of give them some stepping stones so that they get to a place where, and like you said, safety. So what are some of the ways that we can create that safety?

Kate Orso 17:11
Yeah, yeah, that's totally what they need. When they're angry, it's safety because they might sometimes, like children will get angry and then they'll start crying, and other times it's like they need more safety to build before they really want to release the emotions under the surface. So, so one of the things you can do, which is called special time. Maybe

Casey O'Roarty 17:33
my people know about special time, yeah.

Kate Orso 17:36
So you can do special time, and that can really help to build the connection that they need to just soften up a bit and let go of the emotions behind the anger. And sometimes you can use laughter, and that can backfire, because it can make the child feel more angry, and they can be like, Whoa. You're not taking me seriously. You're you're being light and playful. So you have to, sort of know, get to know what's appropriate in your situation with your child, and see what what works best. So

Casey O'Roarty 18:07
what is it important that? And I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but so I'm hearing you talk about, like a transition, a transition or space or time between when it might be for the parent and obvious, like, wow, they have some stuff going on, and there's going to be a release. I'm hearing you really talk about it as an invitation, right? Like creating a relationship first, like you're talking about special time and creating that safety. So parents that are listening thinking about, you know, when you fall apart, when you let it go, when you release, who do you release to right? And what is it about those people that that invite you to feel comfortable and safe to be vulnerable like that, so proactively. And I love this, because I'm always talking about relationship, so proactively creating that then and creating an environment that feels safe. And then, oh gosh, don't lose, don't lose my train of thought, Okay. And so then, but then being willing, and this is a tough one for people like me, who are tad bit controlling, being willing to say, wow, it feels like you are having a lot of emotion. It feels like you're having a lot of stress right now. You know that I'm available to you and one of our you know, and it might sound like we value being helpful and not hurtful. So if you need time to get yourself together, take it. If you would like me to join you, I'm here for you, but right now, this needs to be a safe space for everyone, versus like you have some emotion. To release. So let's go to the couch, and I'm going to sit with you, and you can have a big cry.

Kate Orso 20:05
Yeah, they have to do it, and never in time. That's

Casey O'Roarty 20:09
what I was getting to with that really long,

Kate Orso 20:13
yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 20:15
yeah. Because I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking from the lens of having not a toddler or a preschooler who do those really big, quick pendulum swings, but instead, from the lens of parenting a school age or a teen, and there's a lot of baggage there, and there's a lot and we have to be patient, and we have to trust that they will get there.

Kate Orso 20:40
Yeah, and I think it's about from what I've heard of, because I have a five year old, but from what I've heard from hand in hand instructors with teams, a lot of it is, is more like hanging out with them in a relaxed way and in a very low key way, being available, yeah? So maybe when they come home at night, or just just to let them know that you're there, maybe having a relaxed conversation as you're driving the car. And you know, if you can figure out some playful ways to to get them laughing and and joining and paying an interest in the things that they love and spending time with them doing those things, it just like, as a relaxed way as possible, no agenda. Not not like, oh, so how's it going at school? I mean, you could say that, but just not like, you want to get all the information out of them, and you've obviously got a hidden agenda. It's got to be, yeah, quite relaxed and just basically listening and being where they're at in that moment, instead of like, oh, okay, I know they've got some feelings to release, or something's bothering them, so I'm gonna try and get to the bottom of it right now. Yeah, it's got to be on their terms, even with the younger children, it's got to be on their terms, rather than your terms.

Casey O'Roarty 21:53
And I love you know, as I think about this more, and thank you so much, I have much better understanding of all of this. And when I think about this more, I really see what happens in a home where this is just what happens like this is just a part of the way we are with each other, that we accept, that, you know, with life, life's life, keeps lifeing and and it's challenging and it's messy, and embracing opportunities to release it all and letting it all go and and what a gift, what a gift that is to our kids, because it becomes a tool for them, right? They, I'm guessing, they become ever more aware of, Wow, I am. There's some disequilibrium in my body, right? And I wonder if this is one of those, you know, I'm thinking about like kids in college, even, who are raised in homes. But this is a valued part of of being and how great that is. And I really appreciate Kate that you said it's, you know, watch your check your agenda at the door, that this does not sound like a checklist. It's not a strategy. It's simply a way of being with each other so that we can continue to move forward in our being our best selves with each other.

Kate Orso 23:18
Yeah, yeah, completely. And I think one of the great things about about crying is that I think a lot of us are quite afraid. A lot of us adults are quite afraid of our emotions. Like, as soon as we start feeling bad, like we go onto Facebook, or we have some chocolate and and what happens with children that grow up like this is they grow up not afraid of their emotions, because many, many times they've gone through a big cry and come out the other side and realizing that if they just let their body do this natural thing, then they'll feel much better than if they kind of dampen all the feelings down so so they can embrace their feelings and have a really healthy emotional intelligence about it all,

Casey O'Roarty 24:00
yeah. And when I was preparing for this conversation with you, I What came to mind was, and this might be totally off the wall, but I was thinking about the stages of grief,

and how, yeah, and how, when we grieve, we go through this process, you know, and there's no time limit to any of it. It's just a process that we all go that typically, we go through that denial and anger, then bargaining, then depression and finally, acceptance. Do you think, or do you know, do children or do we right? Because it's not just about the kids people. This is a human This is a human experience. So do you think we go through stages to get to that release that you're talking about? Yeah,

Kate Orso 24:54
that's there's a really interesting point to think about that. I think. Yeah, it does have some relevance, because often, like, Yeah, at first we're like, denying our feelings, Oh, I'm fine, nothing's wrong. And then as that safety builds, then a child can express the feelings and what often happens afterwards, for instance, like, like, if a child was upset because their friend was leaving the school or something and moving to another place, and they were crying and crying and crying. Then often what happens is, at the end of the process, when they've cried and they've expressed the upset, then they can feel much more at peace with what's happening. And often there's nothing like when our children get upset, we can launch in straight away and be like, oh, I need to fix this situation. I need to do something. And we're so much in fixing brain that we don't allow the emotions. And what often happens with this crying is that when they come to the end of the cry, either there's nothing that needs to fix at all. That's one possibility, or the other possibility is the child might have having cleared their mind of the upset, might figure out some way to fix it themselves. So it's really empowering for them as well.

Casey O'Roarty 26:04
Do you think there's, you know, because there's an extreme on either side, right? So there's the extreme of, we don't have emotion. I'm going to cut you off. I'm going to fix it. No crying, you're good. Suck it up, whatever. And then there's, you know, there's always an extreme on the other side. Do you think that? And have you seen in your work, have you helped parents kind of pull back from, you know, feeling like, I don't know, like every emotion is something that needs to be released. Is there another? Is there an opposite extreme?

Kate Orso 26:40
I guess the the opposite extreme kind of links back to what we were saying before, is that you're really, as a parent, fixated on all my child's acting out. I need to fix them. I need to help them release their emotions, right? And that doesn't send the relax them connected message to your child that you're that you're there for them, and they can, yeah, let their feelings go in their own time when they feel comfortable and ready. So So yeah, that's one thing. And so it's really about being there for your child. Like, if your child wants to play, then that's where they're at in that moment. They might not always want to have a big cry, especially as they get older. It needs more and more time to build up the safety.

Casey O'Roarty 27:29
Yeah? So, so again, going back to it's not a script, it's not a technique. It's about being human.

Kate Orso 27:35
Yeah, yeah. That is totally it. It's just about being human. And instead of all this kind of cultural idea that we need to stop feelings just like letting go of all of that and and sort of seeing what our child needs in that moment and being there for them.

Casey O'Roarty 27:50
Tell the listeners a little bit more about what you've included in your book.

Kate Orso 27:55
Okay, thanks so much. Yeah, so my book is, it's designed for under fives. So although the principles, you can use them for any age, this mainly includes stories from the under fives. And it's basically it includes, like, the benefits of crying. It's got lots of stories to show, like, how this process works. It's got practical tips about how to listen to your children the kind of things to say and do. And it's also got a really important tool for parents called that we do with hand in hand, which is called listening partnerships. And this is really helpful, because when you start to listen to your children's feelings, it can, it can trigger a lot of feelings in you, and it's really hard work, although it has a lot of benefits. So so we have this thing called listening partnerships, where parents get together and get to talk about how parenting is going and vent their own feelings, basically. And yeah, and I've also got a there's a bit about sleep, because listening to feelings is really, really helpful for sleep issues. And there's also a chapter on laughter, because this is another really important emotional release

Casey O'Roarty 29:10
thing. Love it. Well, there's definitely there listeners. There will be a link to Kate's book in the show notes, so make sure you check that out. And I'm just gonna wrap up with my favorite last question, which I may have asked you last time. But the fun thing is, the response is always different. Even when people ask me, Well, what is joyful courage? I always have a different response. So today, Kate, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Kate Orso 29:36
So I would say like, like, parenting is really, really hard work, and sometimes we make mistakes, then it could be really hard to get up the next day and just like, embrace it as a fresh day. So what kept sprung to mind is that, like, we should have try and have the joyful courage just to, like, yeah, embrace the challenges of parenting and forgive ourselves when we. Mess up and just starting from scratch each day and thinking, yeah, yeah, I'm going to be there for my kids as much as I can.

Casey O'Roarty 30:09
That sounds good to me. What are some of the places that people can find you and follow your work

Kate Orso 30:16
so they can find [email protected] and Orson is o r, s, O N, and they can also find me on Facebook. If you put Kate Orson hand in hand, parenting instructor into Facebook, you'll find my Facebook page where I post a lot of articles and stuff. There

Casey O'Roarty 30:36
Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Kate Orso 30:41
Thank you. It was great questions, and it was a joy to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 30:52
I am so glad that Kate could come back on the show. I sure do hope you got a lot out of our conversation. I'm just fascinated by this whole release of cortisol. I mean, what that story about the deer going and finding a quiet place and shaking it out, and how humans release cortisol through their tears? That was new and exciting information to me, and I hope it was new and exciting information to you as well, and I really hope that it was helpful for those of you that followed the hand in hand parenting philosophy. My hope is that this made the crying to release that tension and release those emotions. I'm hoping that this brought it ever clearer for you how to really see that as a tool and an opportunity, not only for our kids, but for ourselves, to really work through the layers of stuff that just shows up on the life journey so big. Thanks to Kate and oh my gosh. End of July, wow, this summer is cruising on by, and I'm shout out to all my joyful courage, 10 people. And I'm hoping that those visions that you created last June are really, really coming into fruition, that your way of being is solid for your kids. If you don't know what I'm talking about joyful courage 10 was a 10 day program we did back in July to help everybody kind of re align with what they want to create for the summer time. And now we're in it, right? We're in the practice. We will be doing another joyful courage 10 mid September. So just be paying attention to hear more about that. If you are taking away juicy tidbits from this podcast, I'd love to hear about it. You can give feedback and share with me over in the live and love with joyful courage Facebook group. We are chatting it up over there. That's where I go for challenges to talk about in my solo shows, so pop in over there. Be part of the conversation. Be part of the celebration. Be part of the safety net, the support network for your tribe. I noticed that when I think about joyful courage, something that really resonates with me is that it's really about building a community. It's about building a community, and I love the way the community supports each other. So thank you for being a part of that. You can find joyful courage on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, if you are feeling overwhelmed by some of the topics that are being spoken about on the podcast. If you feel like, yes, yes, yes, I know I need to put this in practice, and then it feels really tough like like slogging through wet cement. When you try to use these tools and integrate them into your life, you are welcome to connect with me and consider one on one. Coaching I have helped and supported so many parents who really feel intuitively that there is something they could be doing differently. They really embrace the positive discipline, peaceful parenting mindset. They value professional development and through our work together, they are creating outcomes and results that reflect a huge shift in the dynamics in their family. So if you're interested in that, shoot me an email. Casey at joyful courage.com and we can see if we're a good fit. I have a couple more spaces available to begin a to begin coaching with people in August. So reach out, reach out and let me know. And I sure do hope you're having a good time this summer. I hope these summer days bring with it fun and ease and playfulness. I'm hoping you are creating a space of connection and curiosity. In Love and yeah, I'm just really glad to be holding space for for you all in your learning and your growth and your development. Big Love. Take care of yourself. Self Care, Soul care, special time with your kids. Make it happen, and I will be with you again next week with a solo show you.

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