Eps 60: Sandy Blackard Helps With the WHINING

What does “joyful courage” mean to you?

Courage comes when I’m facing a challenge. It’s a reminder of what’s waiting on the other side of the challenge.

 

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www.languageoflistening.com

Say What You See by Sandy Blackard

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful, courage, parenting. Podcast Episode 60.

Hey podcast listeners, welcome back to the show. I am so happy that you decided to return. And if you are a new listener, welcome. Welcome to the party. I am thrilled that you are checking this out. And if you love what you hear, just know there's loads more. There's loads more to listen to. So check out some of the past shows that I've done, and bask in the wisdom of the guests that show up. I'm so lucky that I get to have these powerful forwarding conversations with some of my favorite human beings on the planet. So cool. Speaking of which, this week, today, you are going to hear a conversation that I had with Sandra Blackard about whining, because what parent doesn't love whining? Well, none of us love whining. It's super annoying. And every time I do a parenting class, we make a list of the challenges that show up every day. And guess what? I have yet to run a class where whining does not show up on the list. So if you're sitting there nodding your head like, yeah, how do I get rid of the whining? You are in luck, because this is what Sandy and I are going to talk about ahead in the show. So find a comfy place to sit or tackle that sink full of dishes, or fold some laundry, or take a walk and put your earbuds in and enjoy the wisdom that you will hear from Sandra. And let me just tell you who she is. She is a parent coach, and she is the creator, the founder of language of listening, which teaches life coaching skills to parents and teachers so that they can life coach their children, which is so powerful, such a powerful way of being in relationship and helping our kids realize that the answers that they need are already alive inside of them. Woohoo. She has three simple steps for bringing out the greatness in kids, and she's going to talk about those steps on the show. So Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy, and let me know what you think. Let me know your feedback, and let's meet Sandra.

Hi there, Sandy. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast.

Sandy Blackard 2:37
Well, hello Casey, thank you very much for inviting me. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 2:40
I'm so glad that you're here. Will you please tell listeners a little bit about your family and your journey to doing what you do?

Sandy Blackard 2:47
Oh, I would be happy to I've got two daughters and a wonderful husband. My oldest is 29 and the youngest is 27 they're 18 months apart, so I had that wonderful parenting experience. And the oldest one now is just so that, you know, you know your kids can make it, and they can go out on their own, and it really can work, right? The oldest one of mine is in New York, and she's an emerging artist, and the younger one is in a PhD program studying positive developmental psychology. So, you know, we did it. You know, it's really wonderful to see that everything that you believe that that will work out, does you know? So it just it works out. It's a good message to send good,

Casey O'Roarty 3:31
good. Well, tell us a little bit about what it is that you do out in the world,

Sandy Blackard 3:35
all right, well, and to let you know where, where would I do came from, I think is important here. When my oldest was, she was about four and a half, there was this sudden meltdown. And what really had occurred, of course, in hindsight, I know so much more, but what had really occurred was that I had missed all of the signs of her feeling displaced by the younger sister, right? So, I mean, just, it just seemed like life to me, and I was just doing what I did. I was like, you know, other parents, I read a little bit of what was available at the time, and, you know, and I thought I was doing pretty good. And then there was this huge meltdown. And it really threw me, because she was a kid who had been out in the world and was able to take little classes here and there by four and a half, and suddenly she became incredibly clingy and hysterical if she had to leave my side, and I had, geez, you know, what was that? And it just came from this little argument at a preschool that she had with a child. But the bottom line was, she wasn't heard and believed. So she lost, like, all confidence. It was crazy. And so my journey started there, when I was frantic, starting to look around for like, what do I do? And thank goodness I was up in the Dallas area and met a world renowned play therapist, Dr Gary Landreth, and he's the founder of the Center for play therapy at the University of North Texas in Denton. And at the time he was holding classes in I mean, I thought it was a class. I think actually it was probably a therapeutic experience. But for. Parents who wanted to learn how to do what play therapists did and become the therapeutic agent for their own child. So what I was just an incredible gift. I was able to work with him directly and over a 10 week period of learning these skills and learning how to use them by doing them, it was like immersion in these little play times that we would set up 30 minutes once a week. Now mind you, this is early 90s, you know. So this is really revolutionary stuff at the time. Back

Casey O'Roarty 5:26
in the old days, like my kids would say,

Sandy Blackard 5:30
I'm grandmother generation, I have a different perspective that it all holds true today, and I'm I've been so excited to watch everything that I learned coming out as the normal way to approach parenting. Now it's in everything that you say and the others I respect. So I love the shift that's occurred. But at the time, it was incredibly revolutionary. I'd never seen or heard anything like it. Over this 10 week period, my daughter by me just playing with her, which is how it looked. Of course, it's more than that. She was able to move from clingy to completely independent and skip off to kindergarten and wave at the door, you know, it was like, wow, you know. And to me, it was this moment of the huge enlightenment of like, you know, my gosh. Like, why doesn't every parent know this? Why do you have to wait until your child has a meltdown to get these fantastic skills right? And it was kind of a complicated process to learn them, but you know, I was determined to get these to everybody that I knew, you know. So immediately, just, I mean, out of nowhere, I just started sharing this, and then I thought, well, you know, I could probably, like, like, lead a group of people in this. So I sat down and I, like, wrote up this manual based on what I had learned, thinking that it was, was like, just play therapy, like any, like, just a field, you know, like, you could teach math or whatever. Well, it turns out it was, was very specific to Doctor Landreth and I had virtually reproduced his work in a training manual, and he had never seen that before. He didn't even know it could be put into that format. So we began to work together, and by 2006 I was part of the four person team with these three other doctors of psychology who published the child, parent relationship therapy treatment manual that's used worldwide today still for training parents in the skills that he taught me to use the play therapy skills. And it was totally awesome that I got to be part of that well. And along the way, of course, by explaining things and as you're probably learn as well, you come up with your own ways of presenting it right, sure, and, and because I was a parent, and I was, you know, right in the trenches and trying to use this and explaining it to people, it just was too complicated, you know, I just, I'm not a therapist. I didn't have that background, but it was just the what to do that made such a difference for me that it it all like, I guess it's just the way that I think, but I was able to boil it down into three steps. And it's shocking that these are the core of truly like life coaching. That's really what this is. So you can help your child move from wherever they are to the next place that they want to be, to the place they want to be in life. It helps you bring out their greatness, and it helps, helps you keep everything possible. You know, like no shutdowns, no you can't do this is in there, there's there's nos, that's not what that's about. But the belief that anything's possible is just embodied in these three steps, and they are completely based on Dr landrace work, but they're nothing like it when you when you take at it, right? So it became this unique thing that I was able to put out, and I published this book, and I wrote it up in 2005 and just put it online in 2007 because I was having a hard time explaining it without teaching it, you know, because it was so foreign to everybody, even by 2007 and there were some other other great parenting gurus out there. But this really has turned out to be to this day, people tell me it's still the simplest version of it they have ever seen, right? So I think that's To its credit and and that I what I learned was that if you just do it, you don't even really need to understand the principles behind it. For me, I like that. But anybody who does this, because they are so firmly grounded in transformational principles. If you just do it, everything shifts, you know. And as I say, early on, I thought it was parenting that I was training but, but if you look at I mean, I'm afraid people still have have an association with parenting that is very much tied to the behaviorist. It's about managing children's behavior, right? And if you think that's what your job is, this is going to feel really foreign, right? Because that's not what this is. And I know that's you don't teach it either. You don't, you don't teach behaviorism, you teach the relationship. And Dr landrace work is called The Art of the relationship. No surprise, right? So that's where I come from, and my whole grounding goes back to the play therapy things that I was taught and and so what, what occurred to me was like, Man, these are coaching skills. That's what this is. It takes you out of the parenting room. Don't even think about that. This is coaching. This is exactly what it is, and it's why you can get these transformational results. When you learn how to be with your child, right? First step of connection, you listen, you're with them, you say back what they're saying. You describe what they're doing. It's a very physical process. I call it saying what you see, which. Is, it turned out to be a great name for it, because if you can see something, you're grounded in the physical reality, right? And that's the step of getting present. If you can get out of your head into the moment, into the physical reality, that's the same for you and the child. If you can be objective about that description and it it defuses you, and it helps the child feel like, Oh, they're trying to understand me, and from this middle ground, like, from from your perspective, it's very different than the child's perspective. Oh yeah, yeah, like we do. And, you know, with the two kids, well, and I think I'm going

Casey O'Roarty 10:31
to just stop you right there, because I think that's so important. I mean, I believe, I believe that, like, our thought process has everything to do with the experiences and the relationships that we've accrued through our life. So it makes perfect sense that me, at 42 I'm going to have a much different perspective than my four year old, who has four years of life experience, or my 10 year old or my 13 year old, and so that, I think that can't be stated enough like they just and and not to take that and make the assumption that because you have a certain perspective, it's somehow better than what's happening for your child, right? Yes, or,

Sandy Blackard 11:13
or it's the only way, right? That's where we get trapped. The way that we see the world is so invisible to us. Sometimes we think that's just how it is, sure, you know, yeah. So there's that growth to get back from that point of how things occur, into recognizing them as beliefs. There's the awareness that I know, that you focus on a lot in your work, that I've heard, and it's very, very important. Well, turns out that this very first step of these three steps that I use say what you see, puts that in action, like if you describe what you see, you are not coming from your perspective. You are becoming neutral about it. And to go from your perspective to the child is so hard, but to go from your perspective to this neutral ground and stay there a minute and be present with what's going on, just in this neutral way, it takes the emotion out of it for you. It connects you with the child, and then, bam, all of a sudden, you can see the child's perspective. So it's a remarkable intermediary step. And for me, it was the thing I think that changed everything. And it's also the thing that when you dwell in that, and you use this over and over, you retrain the way that you see the world. And that's what occurred to me, so that I became able to see things objectively and step into the child's perspective very, very quickly, and that's what I do now. I'm able to represent that for parents in my coaching. I can go straight to the child's perspective. I tell you exactly what's going on from that that side, and how it makes sense and how that fits with how your child would think and perceive that moment, you know. And that's a really important step, and hard to do if you're over here, locked in your own view as the parent, right? Right then, and you're right, yeah? And on top of that, sure that your child, they won't survive if they don't see it your way, right? Right? Yeah, that's what we believe. You know, those ones that we're most blind to are our survival, the things we adapted to, to survive, yeah? And we're just sure that's how it is. So it's, this is a completely transformational prod process just by using it. Yeah, and then, of course, it doesn't stop there. When you actually meet and understand where the child's coming from. I have two other directions to go, and these will sound familiar to you, and to me, I put it in this little formula where it's really easy because it had to be easy for me to do. Had to be easy to remember one step, one thing to always do, say what you see. Just say what you see. Just do it. Get out of your head. Just say what you see. Would ground me very quickly. And then from there, I would just look for, well, you know, do I like this, or don't I like this, which is also a skill that parents need to have honed. You know, we're not very good at recognizing our own preferences. Because I think a lot of us have been trained out of it so that we're trying to please other people, or whatever. You know, we lose track of what's okay with us and what's not. So my my system moves from say what you see, connect with the child, and then if they're doing something you like, you point that out, you know, name that strength, so that they can then identify with that part of them. And that's, that's how you bring up the greatness, you see what they do, and then bring that out. And it can be anything from, you know, you just, you, you just tidied up your room, and look, you're smiling. So it has to come from a fact. It's not something I'm teaching from the outside. It comes from an observation. I can say, Wow, you like things neat. You like things tidy, you know, like, you're kind of kid who likes things tidy. Whoa, you know. And it came from the child. You can feel the difference, rather than me going in and saying, Well, now, don't you like it tidy? Now, like, isn't this nice, you know, it

Casey O'Roarty 14:31
doesn't, you know, I love that. And just from the positive discipline perspective, it sounds a lot like how we facilitate encouragement versus praise. And when we talk about encouragement, like one level of encouragement is simply saying, what you see, what do you notice? And it might be like, Oh, the towel is hanging up, or it might be the towels on the floor, but either way, you deliver the information without any kind of judgment. Yeah. And then and when we talk about and I work with teachers too, and I do some trainings with people who work with kids exposed to trauma. And that evidence piece that you just stated around, Hey, I saw you doing this. I saw you shooting hoops. You missed many, many times, and you kept at it. There it is, until you got the until the ball went in the basket. And that takes so much perseverance. There it is, right? And it's helping the kids to see, like, oh, I have perseverance. Or, Wow, you stood up to that kid on the playground who wasn't being very nice to that other child. That was really courageous, yeah. And then all of a sudden, they get to recognize, instead of saying, You're so courageous, right, or you're so smart, or you're so this, they get to recognize that it lives inside of them. So I love this. I love this. Yeah, I

Sandy Blackard 15:53
love it. It's, it's the thing, you know, and I would call it acknowledgement versus praise. And by the way, I heard your interview with Tracy kutchlow, author of zero to five, right? I was involved with her revision, so the second edition is loaded with language of listening, yeah. And when we talked about a versus praise, right? The same kind of thing. It's, it's, it's proof based, and that that's really important, because I think I'd like to make that point that that huge difference between, you know, one of them a really easy way to distinguish between the way adults think and the way children thinks comes from the way children think is it comes from their their experience of life as physical beings. Everything with children is very experiential and very concrete. They don't have that capacity for the the the abstract, conceptual thought that they'll get later on, it'll start coming on towards the adolescence, but, but early on, I mean it, you are talking to a very literal, very physical being. This is what they know, and this is what they should be involved with right now. So as you say, like, the evidence based, like, say, what you see is always proof. Like describing it is, that's the proof this is what it is. And that shows this about you, you know. And so you by anchoring this concept of, you know, courageous or those other you know, wonderful things. I mean, children have all possible human strengths already. You know, for us to bring that our job is to bring them out, not to try to shove them in, right? So, yeah, we watch for them exactly, watch for them or create opportunities for them to arise. And then we're able to give that proof, say what you see, and name that strength and that, I mean, that is it. And so that's when you see something you like. Here it is, say what you see, just, just say what you see. That's always the thing to do. It's always right, you know? Then when you see something you like, go ahead and name the strength. If you see something you don't like, my approach is to offer a can do right now that's not foreign either, because that's an alternative, a different way for the child to meet their needs. And so you're you're going one way or the other constantly in your interactions with children. And again, say what you see starts with listening. That's why my, my my work is called language of listening, so that's the core of it. So when you're listening, everything is coming from the child to you. The more you can clear out your you know, thoughts and expectations, the better, the more blank you can be. When you sit down with a child and allow these things to arise, the more present you are, the more magnificence of that child shows up. It is a stunning experience to be with children when you're able to master these basic skills. It's just something else. And I had a little story that I like to share, if I have just a couple seconds for that. It's an incredible example of this. And again, the these aren't like brand new steps for people these days, but integrating them this way around this central see something you like or see something you don't like, it gives you a really quick way to decide what to do next. So in this scenario, I've taught teachers as well, and I've worked in preschool settings as volunteer and other things. And I was with these kids that were four and five years old, and I was in there for about an hour, and there was an attached bathroom, which is important in this story to this room, so this little girl comes up to me, you know, taps me on the shoulder and asked to go into the bathroom. You just said, can I go to the bathroom? And I said, Sure, you know. And I opened the door and unlocked it, let her go in there. Hear the sink running, but I never heard the flesh, right? So she comes out, and I just described, and I just say what I see. And I said, you know, I didn't hear flush. And there's no accusation in that. There's just, again, that objective comment, which is so wonderful for kids usually, well, this child, oh my golly, you're talking about guilt. She froze. She went white. Her hand went behind her back, and I'm like, wait a minute. You know, what was that about? Right? Whoa. And so I kind of looked over her head, and in here we go, right? I can start with saying what you see. And I said, Oh, you know, I see you have a teapot that's full of water. Okay, right? So you can put it together. I heard the water running. That was what it was about. And clearly she didn't think that was okay. She thought she was breaking the rules, right? So the second she came out, she's in this guilty mode, and thought she was caught. Well, of course. Language of listening is not the kind of thing where I'm going to get in there and try to teach her a new kind of behavior and that that wasn't a good thing to do. What I look at is like, how do I get on her side about this? Because I want to bring out the greatness in her. And here she thinks she's a rule breaker, right? I know that's not true. You know that's not that's not a proper way to look at her. She's She's great. So how can I bring that out in her in this moment. Well, I'm not having all those thoughts. All I'm doing is really just using the little model. And so I said, what I saw, you know, I see you got water in, you know, there's water in this teapot. And then it when you describe, you've probably had that experience, you describe something, again, the child's perspective pops out. And I'm like, Oh, you want to play with water. That's what it is you want to play with water. Now we're connecting right on that deeper, deeper heart level. It's like you want to play with water. Oh, and I'm still on her side with the candus, but I get down and I'm looking around with her, you know, going, my gosh, you know, I don't see any place in this room you can play with water. Hmm. Uh, so there's a say, what you see, kind of description, statement of just what is, hmm, you know, and you want to play with water must be something you can do. That's my general can do. Must be something you can Yeah. Love that. She has never heard this before, and so she's standing there stunned, going, uh, you know, like, you know what? And I looked again, I said, Well, you know, you you want to play with water, you could do that back in the sink in the bathroom, and I'll let you know if somebody wants to go in, you know. And so she kind of just staggered off and went in there and stood a minute and then just dumped the water, you know. I thought, Well, okay, she didn't want to play with water in more than something else that was up to her to decide. So she just dumped it and came back out. And then she went over to little kitchen, and a couple seconds later, here she comes with this little pretend cup of tea that she offers me. Now this is gold because she comes up and offers me the tea, and I get to say what I see again and say, oh, you know, you brought me a pretend cup of tea. And it dawned on me, my gosh, she's playing inside the rules, you know? So I was able to name that strength. And just said that, wow, you found a way to play Tea Party inside the rules. And she beamed. Oh my gosh. This is like the transformation of a child who believes she was a rule breaker into, like, recognizing she is a rule follower, you know, provided her needs are met, she of course she would be, you know. So it shifted her perception of herself, and she spent the next hour, and this really tickled me, knowing she went from child to child, teaching them how to follow the rules of whatever game they were. I mean, it is no joke that the power that we have in a moment, and it comes from that. It's all from that first moment of getting present, of listening, saying what you see, just being there with the child, with no judgment, no questions, no teaching, no fixing, you're just there to be with them. So I like to share that story, because it has all the elements so quickly. And the transformation is profound, you know. And that is what we have the privilege of being able to do for our children, day in and day out, yeah, when we remember to start with that moment of connection, you know, and it's exactly what you teach. This is a, yeah, well, simple model for it, yeah. It really

Casey O'Roarty 23:05
aligns with the underlying philosophy of positive discipline. Is Adlerian theory, which is behavior is based on the needs of belonging and significance, and you taking the time to say what you see connecting like you said, the, you know, children feel seen and heard and valued, and that's, you know, that's all of it and foundation. And you know, what that does is increases the likelihood that they're going, that their behavior is going to show up as cooperative, contributing behavior, right? And that, I mean, that's nice. I always give that disclaimer, all we can do is increase the likelihood, you know, there's still all sorts of other things that come into play, but, you know, showing up that way in relationship, I think, is really so encouraging and validating and helpful, right? Helpful? Yeah, I

Sandy Blackard 23:56
love helpful. And when you go in and you're you see yourself as like this role, this role that I have, and it's actually not a new role. Parents already have it. They're already their children's life coach. Sure they are helping Absolutely you already are. So you're already shaping your child's view of self others in the world. You are absolutely in every interaction, right? And you're passing on, invisibly your own, you know, in that mix. And they'll take what they'll take what they'll take and they'll change it, and they'll rebel against it, or they'll follow it, or whatever. But, you know, we are already in that role, so it's not a new role. So, you know, my suggestion is like, my gosh, you know, if you're already there's life your child's life coach, you might as well get good at it. You know, makes easier for you. Make it easier for the child. You know, in these simple three steps, honest to goodness, you know, I didn't take any outside training to be a life coach, but by using these, I became one. I mean, it's like crazy. How how effective I can be, and how quickly with with adults, children, any anybody, any age, anywhere, same model, same approach, same same coaching style. So it's, it's very powerful. So if just by doing this. While you're raising your children, guess what? You're going to become a really effective life coach, and not only just for others, but for yourself. Yeah, this works for us to say what you see to yourself. You know when, when you're upset about something, and I use the language of you, you know my say what you see. It starts with the words you you know, get you out of yourself over there with the other child. Will also put you up into your greater self, talking to your regular self, yeah? And you talk to yourself by you, it gives you a little distance, sure, and you can allow yourself to be and feel all of those things, yeah. So, you know, it's the you know, you're feeling really mad right now. You know, you feel really put upon nobody's helping you. You know, that's how it feels. You just hate that. You wish somebody would help you. And you're in there going, Yeah, you get it when you have these conversations with yourself. And boy, does that ever feel fulfilling? Yeah? And, and when you get yourself heard, you automatically move back to the next level, back towards who you really are, which is that wonderful emotional state of peace and joy and oneness with the world and powerfulness and all that stuff. That's our normal state. Yeah, those Oh, go ahead.

Casey O'Roarty 26:04
Well, I'm not a brain scientist, but I imagine what I imagine happening when we start to pay attention and become an outside observer. I feel like that is as soon as we take that step from being really ticked off to noticing ourselves being really ticked off, I feel like there must be in the brain movement from that emotional place into the logical place. I mean, I can't prove that. I'm not a scientist, but I'm somebody knows. Somebody knows the science behind that, but it just seems logical that, and every time we come into our prefrontal cortex, we're that much closer to being self regulated, being having perspective, having empathy, having a broader you know, I just said perspective, but it just makes sense. So today, yes, Sandy, what we're going to talk about is every parent's favorite. Challenge, which is whining. And you know, the very first thing I do in parenting classes is we make a list of all the behaviors that are driving parents crazy in their homes that happen on a regular basis and never, ever once parents or teachers, never once have I made this list with them and not had whining on the list, or if they've forgotten, I'll say, Oh, wow. Is this a group where nobody has kids that whine, and then everybody, collectively is like, Oh yeah, the whining, you know? So it's super common. It's really annoying. It's a big trigger for parents and the art. And you have a couple great articles, which listeners I will absolutely have in the show notes for you to read. And you talk about whining as the result of powerlessness or perceived helplessness. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Sandy Blackard 27:56
Oh, absolutely. And to preface that, my one of my other simple models is that I took those needs and they're probably, you could go back to edlerian or whatever. I didn't study all of that, but you know what I what I noticed and was able to boil things down to, is these three basic needs, and it's a really cool way to look at it and have access to it and recognize it in your children's actions. But it's I look at them as experience that's kind of this. I got this body. What can I do with it? I have to do things that are sensory. I have to have every emotion that I can possibly have. I'm here to experience myself fully as a human. Children need that experience in order to grow into the full version of themselves, right? That you've got to have mastery over that and experience along the way. So experience is an absolute need, really huge for younger, younger children. The second one I talk about is connection, which is one that most people are familiar with now, and that is the being understood, feeling like you belong, you know, and all of that. So we bring connection every time we say what, you see, we're meeting that need immediately. And that is the one huge one that we've been talking about with relationship. Well, the other one that is is more downplayed, but I'm finding it to be one of the most critical pieces, is to be able to recognize that your child actually has a need for power, and so do you? Oh, yeah, right. So the need for power, those three experience, connection and power, give you, is it like a new tool that you can use to go, what is going on in front of me? What? What if, you know, if one or more of those is happening, you will see evidence of it. And the other thing that I always add, because the direction I come from, from the life coaching, is that everything is already there, and that truly this one can surprise some people, but I come from a solid grounding in everything's perfect as it is, so that no matter what's happening in front of you, there's something right about it, something perfect about it. And in all of my work, we're bringing out what's right about it and relating to things through there, instead of the the other side, which is what's wrong about it. Let's fix it. We go straight to what's right about it. We remove the resistance to anything and to the point that it's total acceptance. And then you move forward naturally, right? So all. All of my work is about that. So these three basic needs give you this way to look at it. And the part about making about how it's right is that not only are these the three basic needs, and you can see them when they're showing up in your children when the needs rise, they also children don't just sit there with those needs. Children are already the second they begin to show up, children are already in action meeting their own needs. So it's not like that burden is on us. It actually shouldn't be. We're there to, again, provide the environment or structure around them so that they can meet their own needs. That's not anything we can do for someone else. So we're there supporting them in meeting their own needs. And it's a really good mind shift for for parents to get into that your job.

Casey O'Roarty 30:43
Can I pause you really quick? So I want to just, I want to just make a distinction too. And I love everything already being perfect. We have, you know, I have one mentor who her little mantra is, already, we're already always whole. And another little mantra that I learned in my life coach training was that every human is whole, creative and resourceful, and I appreciate that. And so when you say everything is right and perfect as it is, what's coming to mind to me, and I because I love, I love when I'm teaching a class and I'm offering something, and I know I can feel like people are having all sorts of like thoughts, and so I like to be transparent and say so I'm guessing that some of you that are listening are thinking to yourself, What the hell is this lady talking about? My kid is out of control. I'm in constant power struggle with them. But what I'm hearing you say Sandy is everything is right, meaning, kids who don't feel like they have a lot of power or control in the home environment are going to show up in power struggle. So it makes perfect sense that that's the behavior that they're that's that's how I'm making sense of what you're saying and but will you kind of dig into that, because as kids get older and challenges feel stickier, that's not a good word, challenges feel more personal. Challenges feel Messier, and so I just really want to make sure that the listeners are hearing because I hear, I understand what you're saying. I want them to recognize that what is happening right now is perfect for this moment. And you know, there are ways of meeting, of intersecting with your child in the moment that is forwarding for everyone,

Sandy Blackard 32:35
absolutely true. And like I said, that's why I kind of give you this angle into it, there's always something right about it. Okay, okay. And that's an easier way than saying like, Oh my gosh, everything's perfect. When you're looking at and going, nothing is perfect. Because I do work with a great deal of perfectionist because that's where I came from, and that's why this is such a revolutionary, transformational thought, to have your brain suddenly shift from there's nothing right about it, you know, to oh my gosh, it's perfect as it is. How could that be? It leads you into that inquiry, and going through the neutral zone of objectivity is how you get there in a power struggle. What I would say is not just that, of course, and it is. It's very logical that this would show up as a power struggle. But here's why, because that power struggle is occurring because your child is trying to meet their own need for power, right? That's what you want to understand. It's already happening. When you look at that and you see a child who is is fighting with somebody else or trying to, you know, take over your boundary and create their own right. What they are desperately trying to do is create an experience that feels powerful to them to meet their own need, sure. So in 100 it's 100% a positive thing that they are trying to do. It's right for them to meet their need for power. It is absolutely perfect that they would try to meet their need for power. Of course they would. And we haven't been taught to see it that way, you know, so sort of to get back and really understand that it is the right thing for them to do. Now, here's the deal. You come back to my it's a heart model that the way that I frame these three things, and those boundaries of do I like it or do I not like it, are how you decide what to do next, not is it right or wrong that your child is doing that that locks you away in judgment, and, you know, takes you away from the moment, heats you up and does all kinds of things, is to get back down to the realization that every all of your guidance comes from Do I like this or not? Is this how I want it or not? Right? Sure, you have to learn to hone in on that inside of you. So if you're in a power struggle, you're going, I don't like this, you know. And this is but I get, you know, like in the these are not the thoughts you have in the moment. You use the tools in the moment. But if you look at it in hindsight, you look at him, Go, my gosh, he was just trying to meet his need for power. He was trying to decide what the boundary would be, and he was also trying to control me. Both of those things would work, of course, they would work to meet his need for power. They would be right and perfect, and I don't like them, right. So here we come. I get to set a boundary, right? I just get a set of boundary and go, Oh, you know, I can. See that you want this and this, and you don't like what I said, you know? And this is how it is, right? That's how it is. Must be something we can do if I'm going to negotiate, or must be something you can do to get that need met or get that thing that you want in a way that's okay with me. There must be right? And I'm on their side. Yeah, that. Let me work with you on that, you know? And that's a coaching approach. I'm balancing what they always validate what a child wants. When there's a boundary struggle, go straight to what they want, validate what they want. That's where the resistance is coming. They're sure that, that the reason that they can't have it is because you don't understand what they want. So we drop back down to say what you see, we're back into that, that very first premise, and it is that everything children say and do is a communication, and they must continue to communicate till hurt and then filters, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 35:47
and I think that there's also room here and an important piece here, especially with power, which man, how quick did we move out of whining? We were gonna talk, my bad too, but right back. But I think that especially with power when, and this is from my own personal parenting experience, because we dabble in power struggles, is when I it's an opportunity for me to go inward and to recognize that I have been the one that is calling all the shots. And so first it's like, God, what is wrong with him? Why is he being so difficult? And then I think, let's take a look at how I've been showing up. Yeah, I've been showing up pretty controlling myself. And so then I own it with my kids. I notice, and it's and it's so it does. I think it does fit in this I'm noticing that we are in a lot of conflict, and when I really am honest, I also recognize that I've done a lot of the decision making over the last couple weeks. I'm wondering what your experience is, and typically it's met with, yeah, you've been really bossy. And then we talk about, like, Okay, so where are some places where we can look for choices, or we can share power, you know? So that's kind of, that's the power struggle. Because I do think that sometimes I don't, you know, I want to make sure, too, that parents understand that. I think this is a great place where we were talking before about like, my perspective being right and their perspective being wrong. I think we can easily slide into, I'm the adult. These are the boundaries you get to live with. It. You're the child, I mean. And if that's your if that's your style, you know, more power to you. Good luck. And I would invite you, if you're finding that that is met with a lot of resistance, to draw forth from your child, like, like you said, what are some things that would be helpful right now? How could this work for you? What can we do together? How can we shift together so that we're both feeling seen and heard and connected? Yeah, yep.

Sandy Blackard 38:00
Must be something we can do. And that keeps the possibilities. Can you imagine growing up with that? I've got so many, many kids that even by age two or three, when they start talking, they're in this mindset because their parents are working with them this way, they'll come up say, well, it must be something we can do, you know. And they'll work with their little sister and say, you know, like you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to push the water out of the tub, you know. Must be something you can do, and you'll hear it out of a three year old. Do you know? I mean, it's amazing how this is child language. Yeah, we're down at that level, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So, and the power struggle thing will come up for us, because we have unmet needs for power, right? So if you find yourself no way that bossy, and they do, it came from our perception of our childhood and all of that. So then, then that's again, that's, you recognize first, make yourself right? Of course, I would be bossy, right? Now, I need to control everything in my sight so that I can feel powerful again, you know, and turn around and find something you can control. Go, go. Control the laundry, you know, whatever. But you know, it's, it's the same thing with our kids. They're all right and perfect needs. You know, they are their needs. They're real, you know. So when you find yourself making one wrong, then that's your journey back into your personal growth. Go back and look at why you think that's wrong, to feel powerless. Where'd that come from? And that takes us again, back to the the whining we were going to talk about, because a big piece of when children whine is when they feel powerless. You know, if they are sure that they can't get you to hear what they want or act on it, it, a lot of kids, it falls into the acting on it because they haven't experienced validation of just us understanding what they want. Enough. So, you know, if getting something is proof, oh my gosh, if they don't get it, they're sure we don't understand, right? So they come to us, you know, kids, we can train them up into this whining state by not listening, right? If we are not responsive to what they want and we don't validate how important what they want is to them, then your children will escalate into the wines. Because, again, you can use this one simple principle, they must continue to communicate until they're heard. So if a child has something they want, which is the core of any being. What we like, what we love is who we are. It's our unique expression. What we want is an outgrowth of that, and it guides us through life, like, my gosh, life coaching. We want to strengthen that. Want muscle in our kids. That is the most important thing for them, because that's where all of their guidance will come from through life, it comes from what you want. It's your it's your key to motivation. It's your key to your dreams, you know? So we really want to help children harness that power and recognize and be really good at wanting and recognizing what that is. So, so that you want them to identify, that you want them to be able to speak it, right? So if you have a child who's used to saying, Well, you know, I want a cookie, and is used to hearing, no, there's no way, you know, right? The child can't stop it's like, you gotta know this is really important to me, mom. You know, when it comes out, like, but I want a cook. They can't not communicate. So in one sense that continuing to communicate and whining a shift for parents to look at is it's a very brave step. It's very courageous, because here's your child facing this absolute no, they're sure it's coming, but they still ask anyway, yeah. Like, wow. You know what? What persistence that shows our kids are amazing in the face of all of the shutdowns that they may have experienced, to be able to come back and continue. So you want to remember that and go, my gosh, that shows persistence. I need to bring that out in other ways,

Casey O'Roarty 41:16
not versus, like, oh my gosh, if they ask me that again, I'm going to go berserk. Yeah. Right?

Sandy Blackard 41:27
Exactly, yeah, but, but you don't want it asked like that, in that way. So, so the way to interact with it, all I do is I translate it. That's it, you know, like I get the communication, because I know if I don't That thing's going to escalate. And if I don't get it, the escalation will go from whining into crying. And if there's, there's a powerless feeling in there, it will go into anger, you know, and then off we go, and we're into tantrums and all that, because I didn't hear it, you know. So it's so, so easy to engage in children and just diffuse it immediately by listening, you know. And you might have to train them a little bit, because if they're used to you not responding to what they want, you know, they won't believe it at first, you know. And so when they say the thing about, you know, I the toast, somebody cuts toast and and it's all cut into triangles. And you give it to the child, because they said, I want my coast, my toast cut into triangles. And you took this time and you did it, and you put it down, and you got a millionaire things to do. And then they go, it's all cut up. And you're like, what, you know. Like you told me to cut it up, you know. And you can't put it back together, you know. So the parent is having a power drop at that moment, not knowing what to do, thinking they need to fix it and all that, but, but you ditch all that by just saying what you see, it's just, oh no. Match the child's emotion, oh no, it's all cut up, and you don't want it that way. Like, that's it. That's all you say, you know. And then the child starts to deescalate and go, No, you know, instead of the escalation Right, right, right and down right, depending on whether you make them right or whether you make them wrong, and you know. And so making them right, getting them back down to how awful that is to have to sit there and look at those pieces all cut up when you really don't want it that way, and you just want it some other way, you know. And when you say that enough where they get that you get how important that cut up was, a lot of kids will automatically shift and go, Well, it's okay. I'll just kind of eat, you know. Or, or you'll stay with them a minute, and you'll go, man, I must be some way that we can do something about that, you know. And if you've got a creative child, if they're still in that zone, then they'll start to say, well, you know, I could get some toothpicks and stick it together, or, you know, I can mush the little edges to get, you know, man, you know, if I said that coming in as a fix, that would not work, right? It would totally not work. You have to come in and allow that stuff to come from the child. So it's the say, what you see piece that shifts the whining in a heartbeat, if it's over, something the child wants, and the other side, if we did have a minute, would be the side of if, you know, they might want a thing, and that's that's either okay with you or it's not okay with you, but, but the thing that really activates parents a lot is when the child wants help and we're sure they don't need it, right? And that's the thing that really activates our whole history of, you know, being helpless and having people tell us that it was not okay to be helpless, and so we're still fighting that battle inside. And when that helpless shows up out in front of us, right, rather than recognizing as, Oh, whoops, there's another flag, something else I need to work on, right? Must be okay with being helpless that I missed, right? We react to it, right? You can react very quickly. So you can either, you know, you can turn around and say, Well, you see for yourself. A minute. I just hate that, you know, I just, I want him to do exactly what he wants to do. Yes, you do. You really want him to do it. Okay, all right, good. Now I'm back again, and I turn back around, and I can be there for a second if I say what I see to myself first. Or if you're used to the saying what you see, and it just comes out. It can come out with, like, you know, shoes is a one that a lot of kids, you know, get stuck on. You know, they can't get their shoes on. And you know, they not have put their shoes on, they put them on. They put them on yesterday, for heaven's sakes, right? If you say that stuff, it'll get worse. They'll escalate even more. Yeah, it's not what it's about, you know, yeah, and it's about one of two things. It's either about they they really are feeling just too flustered and just, you know, overwhelmed about life at the moment, and that shoe seems like the biggest thing on earth, which I'm for. Familiar with, because I promise you, up and down, I cannot unload the dishwasher at night. Can't do it. I can only do that in the morning. It's nothing at the evening. I can't touch that thing, you know. So, so kids have their ups and downs too, right? So you're either dealing with a child who's feeling completely overwhelmed and really like in the moment, can't do it like no joke, you know, and just needs your help and doesn't know they can ask, or the child who just wants something from you and feels like they haven't been able to get it, so they're going to try to control you and get you over there, you know. But either way, you're gonna have this reaction to it. So just saying, what you see, cut straight through, get you down to the core of it, and you just say, like, oh, you know. And the child's probably telling you, so you can go straight to the one you want help with that, you know that just looks really hard for you today. I'm not going to go in and tell them how they know how to do it and all that stuff. All I need to do is validate right where they are and they rise to the next level, back to their normal self of complete, you know, fulfilled experience connection and power. So they're great when they're in that zone. So I just need to say what I see and kind of facilitate that and let them get back there. And if the child comes back to you with the shoes and go, you just can't even do and even know what to do, you know? And then you can look at them and just say, Oh, that's terrible. And we got to go. And you got no shoes, you know, you'd be there for a second, you know? Oh, man, it must be something you can do. Now, there's a million options. You can either, like, pack them up or take them with you, or whatever. There's a lot of things you can do with shoes. You don't have to fight about it. But if you allow the child to be in that space and feel what they feel for a second, you'll see the child picking up one and trying, like, man, turn the whole thing around, and then all you do from that point forward is say what they're doing, right? You know, towards that goal, you say, well, there it is. You got the shoe in your hand, there's a step, right? And then you say, Oh, well, you know your foot, yeah, it goes in toe first. You didn't try to put your heel in first. You know how to get that shoe on based on what they're doing, right? So you're helping them rebuild their confidence by bringing them to become present to what they're actually doing and moving out of that state of overwhelm. So that's that's a pretty cool thing. You can you show me if you have a child who's who's at the point of being ready to problem solve, show me is a great mobile show me what the hard part is. And they'll take it out, and they'll show you that little Velcro is, you know, that's the thing, that's the hard part. And you go, wow, look at all that other stuff you were able to do. And we're down to just this one thing that's the hard thing, that's what you want help with. Child will go ahead and flash that thing. And you go, Oh, why? You didn't even need my help. Look at you, you know how to do that, and they walk off. Fine. Yeah? It brings the connection. It meets their need for power. All of that to me, the most important way to get out of your head into the moment was my mantra, say what you see. It was just, say what you just get it out, even if it comes out, like you want help right now and I'm really busy, you know, like, even if it doesn't have to sound nice, positive parenting is not sounding Nice. Yes, thank you. Authentic. Yeah, yes, authentic. Be authentic, and allow your children to be authentic. I

Casey O'Roarty 47:48
love that. I think that's so important. Because I feel as though positive discipline, positive parenting, you know, is often seen as permissive, and it's not, it's there's a firmness piece there that we you know, there's a firmness piece there. And it's the limit setting, it's the boundaries. You know, it's not never saying no, and, you know, bending over backwards for your kid and, and what I'm hearing you talk about Sandy too, with the Say what you see, and I hear you saying, you know that that first step in listening and hearing your child, and not only that, but also making it clear to your child that you hear them, that's what it is. Yeah, I really appreciate that, because, again, I think that's and I'm going to reference Dan Siegel, who I love. And he talks about, you know, connecting with the down. He calls it downstairs brain and the upstairs brain. And the downstairs brain is the emotional brain, and the upstairs brain is the logical part of the brain. And it's like, we connect with the downstairs brain to make a bridge to the upstairs brain, like, once we can, and I you see it happen in your kids, right? When you can say, Wow, you must be really frustrated right now. Or I'm wondering, I'm wondering if that made you really sad when that happened, and you see their whole little bodies just will relax because they feel seen and heard and validated, regardless of our opinion around whether or not they need to feel that way. That is not what they need to know all the most in that moment. They just need to be seen and heard and validated and know that their grown up is there with them. And so I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that. And um, one of the let's see where do I want to go now? So, um, one of the things that I love your opinion on this something that I will coach parents around when they do have a child who's, you know, just kind of gotten into that habit of whiny, you know. And maybe it's not, you know, maybe it's just become the way that they sound, at least in the. Parents mind they don't like the tone when it might be whining, or it might be, you know, rude or whatever the language tone is. What I'll often coach parents around is simply restating the request or restating the statement in the way that they want to hear it. So I want a cookie. And then I respond, can I have a cookie? Please, mom, no judgment, no. Like, you need to say it like this, or I can't, you know, just like, Can I have a cookie, Please, mom. And then they say, sometimes I'll do a little. Can I have a cookie, Please, mom? And I just say, Sure. You know, done, moving on, right? And so that's another thing that I, you know, it's just kind of short and sweet, and that's assuming that there isn't this underlying piece happening just, you know, as a way to, you know, continue to model, teach, model, practice, you know, how to interact, interact in communication skills. What do you think about that as a tool for parents as well?

Sandy Blackard 51:00
What you're doing, you're it's in the guidance part. You know, what you're doing is just modeling. You know what it is that that you want? You know? The The thing is, again, if they're coming at you, and it is a thing that you don't like, why you got the eye rolling was because your child was sure you understood, yeah, you know. And so that part wasn't acknowledged, right? So, so if you even want it to be more authentic, you know, you would need to say that. And you could even just, I mean, this is just a discussion at this point about the guidance. And they would say, you know, can I have cookie? And you'd say, say, oh, you know, well, I don't really like it that way. I mean, I can, I can give my opinion at this point if I'm going to teach the way that I like it, you know, this is what would work for me, right? You know, sure, like that, you know. But I, you know, I get, I know you want a cookie. I totally got that. And this is what would work for me, you know. So it's just like completing that communication a little bit so that that you're saying the unsaid, which is that I did understand what you said, you know, right? And so otherwise, the child can feel controlled if you just launch right into the correction, you know, yeah, so you just want to get that authentic piece in the middle, if, if you, you know, if you want to have have that go a little bit more smoothly. But you know, ideally, what, what you would do if the child is coming up and complaining, like, you know, you know, I want a cookie, you know, you get that kind of voice, right? And with that kind of voice, then, then you say, well, you really want that cookie? Yeah, you know, want to do that first, to match that thing, to tell them that that's what's got, plus. Well, then guess what happens? See, this is where I think it's the most powerful. Because if you say that and you match it, and they're understood, and they'll go, Yeah, I want to cook. You're like, oh, wow, look at that. You already self corrected your tone, you know. Now you know that it's possible to interact with me in this way. You did that yourself, you know. So now that shows you're polite, right there it is, you know, it's right there. So, so I love it when you can just come back with say what you see, child adjusts, and you can point that out as the strength so that they've just taught themselves, because it's not like your child doesn't know that you don't like that way of asking, or there's another way, right? So you want to put them in the situation where they're the one that moves into it and it really sticks. So when they get they're the one. Of course, I know what that is, and I know how to do that, and I'm, you know, I'm polite and all that stuff. I really am, yeah, you know, I just, at the moment, I'm just feeling like, really agitated, you know. But that, and the other thing about the authenticity with with the wine is, like, the unauthentic statement to say to a child who is whining at you or complaining at you like that, is that, like, you want something you don't think you can have, you know, or you think I'll say No, right? Like, start there, boy, learning how to be authentic, like that, and say the unsaid shifts everything. So if I say you think I'll say No, I still have the choice of whether I am or not, you know, but it gets that piece out in the open, you know, you that sounds like you think I'll say no, and they'll go, Well, yeah, you never let me have, and then you can have the other conversations that's been hidden all this time is that this child, and I'll get this to the other thing about children that I realized from all this observation was that in this present moment, children once really is always something happens once, it's always there. They have adaptive brains. They are designed to do that. We're supposed to do that at that age. We still kind of do it maybe three times as always to us, but, you know, but for kids, it's one and so once is always and not now is never right. No joke, no joke. Because physical presence, if my world is entirely, entirely physical, and it's not there, it is never. I mean the emotional experience of never. So when the child comes back and says, Well, I never get to the only thing you need to know is once, at least once, that was the true experience for that child. They didn't get them once. So I interpret that again, and I can say that back and go, Wow. So feels like you never get to have this cookie or whatever you never do. That's really frustrating to feel like you like what you say, what you ask for you never get. Now I can totally get why this is so upsetting for you. Yeah, to me, I was thinking it was just a cookie. But to you, it's like, your life, you never get what you want. Seriously, yeah, and the kids one, well, yeah, you know. But, but when you validate it, they're like, well, not really. And they come back out and go, Well, you know. So then they shift, right? But you want to really presence that and make. That okay for them to feel and think what they think, and then it totally evaporates. It's magical. It's totally and that's again, these are coaching skills, and what you're teaching, I would call them coaching skills, because it's very different. It's all about aligning with the child, making them right, helping them see themselves through their lens of greatness, not through there's something wrong with you we gotta fix it's always there's something right about what you're doing. I don't know what it is at the moment, but there is telling myself that way, and I can think about it, and I can come back with a do over when I get it, but you know, sure it's at least very simply, at the very least, whatever they're doing is already meeting their need for experience, connection and power. So it's a really simple way to step in and start finding the greatness in every single behavior behind what's going on. You know? The other one is intentions. Intentions take you straight to the heart, straight straight to their highest self. Is their intention. You know, you didn't you didn't mean to do that when a child has an accident. Is the best thing they can ever hear, because that ties back to who they really are. Yeah, you know, you were trying to help, and this fell over. You didn't mean for it to fall over. Oh, music to a kid's ears. Yeah. Instead of, you need to be more careful, right? You know, right?

Casey O'Roarty 56:08
Like Sandy, I love this. I love all the places that it aligns with positive discipline. I love hearing, you know, slightly a slightly different flavor for the same kind of concept. So, and I can talk to you all day. I'm looking at my little it's like, oh my gosh, how did 53 minutes already go by? Thank you so much. You are such a wise woman and so full of great information. Can you please tell the listeners where they can find and follow you, like your website and where you are on social media.

Sandy Blackard 56:43
Yeah, the website is language of listening.com. All one word and on the social media. My Facebook is language of listening. That one fits. I didn't really quite understand Twitter when I got on it. So it goes back to the title of my learning curve, and they wouldn't let you use hardly any letters at that time, you know. So, so I had to really come up with something that was different. So it doesn't really match, but you will find me on Twitter at s, w, y, s, okay, and that stands for the title of my book, which is, say what you see, which is what you know, was ground. That's the main feature of what I taught and what I'm really known for. So s, w, y, s, parents, you'll find me on Twitter, but pretty much, I would say, go to facebook if you're a Facebook person, because all I do is I post on Facebook and it double posts to Twitter. So you know, that's how that works. But yeah, the in the website, if I could say that, what they will find there. And I really, really hope that that your listeners visit, because I've got a lot of free resources there. The most important one, I think, is, you know, that book that I publish, I put say what you see there on my website for you to read, but it's in flipping book format. It's a flash, so you will have to read it from a computer. It doesn't work mobile. Mobile is really weird, so you don't want to do that, but it's it's mobile. The content is available if you really want to see what I teach. This is the core of the how to of these three steps. It's only 66 pages. It can it can really give you some great coaching tools there. And also, I want to add that the website still isn't turned over completely from our parenting language into the coaching language, but I think you'll see immediately that that's what this is. It totally fits with coaching skills. And in addition to that book that you can actually read there, I offer my online training center where I've put a couple of the workshops that I've done, I've cut them down into little five minute segments consecutively with little notes and things in them. So it's a really great way to take one of my workshops very inexpensively. At the moment, it's like 1995 permanently, right? So you get in there, you have all the time you want to look at it. You can refer back to it. It takes what I teach in the book to a little greater depth. Gives you more example, tons of examples in there, gives you a little e course. There's Q and A area, if you want to leave questions. A lot on my website, great. And blog, sure. My blog as well. And

Casey O'Roarty 59:01
my blog, I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes. And so I have one question that I ask all my guests at the end, and that question is, what does joyful courage mean to you? Sandy, okay,

Sandy Blackard 59:14
and that was like, whoa. Those two words together are so powerful. That's not the usual thing that I put with courage, because I'm not a real risk taker, right? So, so I looked at him, well, joyful courage. Wait a minute. What is that? You know, but, but really, Courage comes up for me when I'm facing a challenge, like, that's when it comes up. And if I'm facing a challenge, it's something I want, right? It really is. And so I'm facing this challenge of something I want, but I'm not sure I can do. So I love this phrase, the joyful courage that can now serve as a reminder of what's on the other side. You know, when I tackle that challenge and I get through it, what's on the other side will be joy, because I set that challenge there, it's set there for my own personal growth, and on the other side is always joy. So yes, thank thank you so much for this. This opportunity to share this with your listeners. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 1:00:00
I'm so glad that you came on. Thank you so much for taking the time, and I'll have to have you on again. Oh,

Sandy Blackard 1:00:07
I would love to come back. I really would. And I just really appreciate the work that you do as the host, the way you're able to manage the car, and you're so flexible. Casey, I love this. Yeah, I think it's a great way to bring this information to parents, thank

Casey O'Roarty 1:00:20
you. Well, we'll see you next time.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:22
Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 1:00:30
All right. Well, I know that there were some gems in there, in that conversation. I know there's things that you're taking away. I would love to hear about them. So why don't you, right now, head on over to the live and love with joyful courage page and let me know what your favorite part of that conversation was with Sandra. I'm so happy that she took the time to come and talk to me about whining and really, so much more. And if you're thinking, live in love with joyful courage Facebook page. What is she talking about? Yeah, it's my Facebook community. It's a closed group, and you are welcome to join in, so just search for it in the little search bar on Facebook, and you'll find us, and I will accept you, and you can be part of the conversation, the celebration, the support system and community that we're building over there. So, so exciting. I also want to let you know about a new offer that is coming down the pipes, and it's actually a summit, an online event, an online summit that I was invited to be a part of. And what it is is it's a 21 day long summit featuring 21 of the world's leading experts in mindful parenting, including me, and it's already shaping up to be fantastic. So couple of the things that speakers will be covering peaceful parenting and the importance of connecting before correcting. Why traditional education structures just don't work, and the options available to parents looking to help their children learn and grow in the best way possible, the secrets of guilt free parenting, right? I'd like to lose some guilt and creating the life and family you desire understanding your child's developing brain to help you make better parenting choices and weigh more. And guess what? The coolest part about this program is that it's free. It's free, and especially since you've been a listener of the podcast, you will see in the show notes a link that will get you to the event and to registering for the event. And I think the way that it works is that each day you'll get a link to a video interview. So you have to register to save your seat, and it's all free. There's no catch so, but you do have to register. So look in the show notes, and you will see that link. Click on the link, register, and you'll start getting these emails with links towards these interviews. And it starts tomorrow. So if you're listening to the podcast the day that it began, or the day that I put it out, which is Tuesday, September 20, go to the link. The Summit actually starts tomorrow, and I believe you can sign up even as it's going on. So even if it's a couple days into it, just click on that link in the show notes and find your way there. Super exciting. Shoot me an email if that's confusing at [email protected] [email protected] and shoot me an email if you have any feedback, any questions, if you have some thoughts about the podcast or guests that you'd like to see on here, if you have any connections to Brene Brown, she's like my fantasy show guest, hook me up friends. I really want to get around here and talk about wholehearted parenting. And I figure, hey, maybe, maybe somebody listening out there in podcast land could hook me up, or what else can I tell you about? Just join the tribe on the Facebook group. I have a newsletter that you can get to through my website, joyful courage.com where I also have online offers and a blog that I occasionally write on. But yeah, I'm here. I'm here to serve, and I'm super grateful that you are listening in. You can find the podcast on iTunes as well, so head on over to iTunes and you'll see, if you search for joyful courage, parenting podcast, I will pop up and there's a little purple button that says, subscribe. If you subscribe to the podcast, you will get every show automatically each week when it becomes live. So subscribe, and if you super duper love the show, I would so appreciate a review. So head on over to iTunes. And leave me a five star review and talk about how impactful The show is for you. What you love about it, it'll help me increase my visibility and get my numbers up as far as listenership goes. So that would be a great way to pay me back for all this time that I'm spending offering up this great information for you, big, huge love. Have a beautiful day.

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